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  1. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 9:44am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dancing with the stars?

    Wasn't sure whether to post this video of a 5th degree black belt test in this forum, the fraud and investigations forum, the traditional forums, etc. The questions I have, and maybe someone will comment on, are (1) is this a MCDojo? Where do we draw the line between a McDojo and a sincere, if somewhat misguided attempt to teach useful skills -- does it make a difference? (2) are there useful skills being demonstrated here, at least in the context of striking skills? (3) is the group form shown a legitimate way to do forms, or is it a ripoff of Master Ken's "Hurticane"?


  2. submessenger is offline
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 9:57am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Wasn't sure whether to post this video of a 5th degree black belt test in this forum, the fraud and investigations forum, the traditional forums, etc. The questions I have, and maybe someone will comment on, are (1) is this a MCDojo? Where do we draw the line between a McDojo and a sincere, if somewhat misguided attempt to teach useful skills -- does it make a difference? (2) are there useful skills being demonstrated here, at least in the context of striking skills? (3) is the group form shown a legitimate way to do forms, or is it a ripoff of Master Ken's "Hurticane"?


    Sadly, hurticane is the best possible description of this video (which has made the rounds several times, here, in the last few months).

    McDojo designation is somewhat different than the craptasm exhibited here. Bullshido would be a more apt label, if the school(s) involved in this video were telling their students that such flailing would be effective self defense. McDojo involves a study of the business practices; some McDojos do offer quality instruction.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 11:35am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    (1) is this a MCDojo?
    Is it a for-profit martial arts enterprise? Maybe, but the crappy highschool gym makes me think if it is, its a bad one.

    Where do we draw the line between a McDojo and a sincere, if somewhat misguided attempt to teach useful skills -- does it make a difference?
    I think you mean Bullshido, not Mcdojo. I draw the line at "will what they're teaching work against a real person?"

    (2) are there useful skills being demonstrated here, at least in the context of striking skills?
    I'd say it demonstrates poor footwork, poor handwork and poor defense, so no.
    (3) is the group form shown a legitimate way to do forms, or is it a ripoff of Master Ken's "Hurticane"?
    Those monkeys are stealing his peach.
  4. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 12:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, I get it that the McDojo label has to do more with making profit and not giving much back in return. Now, as to whether its Bullshido -- sure, their favorite side kicks wouldn't work against a better trained MArtist, or against a guy who can take a punch or a kick without blinking, but does that make it useless or dangerous to teach?
    This is a moral question for me. I've taught self-defense classes (for free) to people who were middle-aged, out of shape, who'd freeze or wet their pants in a real fight and I considered it a victory if I could get them to learn a single technique that might someday get them out of a jam. I've also taught Aikido classes to people who, in spite of my statements to the contrary, fantasized that this was all they needed to fight like Seagal. I'm wondering if I was I doing these people a disservice instead of a favor because some of them walked away overestimating what they'd learned. I may be asked to teach again sometime in the future, and now I don't know if its better to say no, and just recommend pepper spray or a ccw permit.
  5. xstyle is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 1:30pm


     Style: Muay Thai / BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This club is the WMAA (world martial arts association). They have a ton of videos on youtube. You can basically buy your blackbelt there (I think they even have prices on their website). Thats why there are so many 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc degree black belts. I think this is a good example of a McDojo. I read somewhere that the head of the club (Mike Dealy) believes that in a real fight its going to be fast and frantic so they practices their forms flailing around as fast as the can (with no technique).
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 2:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    This is a moral question for me. I've taught self-defense classes (for free) to people who were middle-aged, out of shape, who'd freeze or wet their pants in a real fight and I considered it a victory if I could get them to learn a single technique that might someday get them out of a jam. I've also taught Aikido classes to people who, in spite of my statements to the contrary, fantasized that this was all they needed to fight like Seagal. I'm wondering if I was I doing these people a disservice instead of a favor because some of them walked away overestimating what they'd learned.
    I feel that a well-structured class should include drilling against increased levels of resistance and randomness. Such a structure tends to keep the I'm-a-badassitude to a minimum, since by the end of class, they'll be genuinely struggling with another person. They won't be thinking "I can take on any untrained punk who tries to punch* me!" if they spent the latter portion of class taking some punches*.

    *stab, grapple, whack with stick etc
  7. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 5:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with all that -- in a real MA school, that's the way to train. Problem I've had is the students in my self-defense class were not capable of performing in a realistic way, either because of age, physical condition, or fear of getting hit or hitting someone (frankly, I was also a bit worried). So, are self defense classes for the masses a complete waste of time, a cruel and dangerous deception, or is there some value in teaching one or two half-assed techniques to people who wouldn't otherwise have anything at all. I've heard it said that in a fight, attitude counts for a lot, and I agree. Is it helping people to give them some degree of confidence, even if its likely false confidence, or do we take the attitude that MA is only for the relatively few people who are ready and willing to dish it out and take it?
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2013 6:12pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I agree with all that -- in a real MA school, that's the way to train. Problem I've had is the students in my self-defense class were not capable of performing in a realistic way, either because of age, physical condition, or fear of getting hit or hitting someone (frankly, I was also a bit worried). So, are self defense classes for the masses a complete waste of time, a cruel and dangerous deception, or is there some value in teaching one or two half-assed techniques to people who wouldn't otherwise have anything at all. I've heard it said that in a fight, attitude counts for a lot, and I agree. Is it helping people to give them some degree of confidence, even if its likely false confidence, or do we take the attitude that MA is only for the relatively few people who are ready and willing to dish it out and take it?
    I believe that a brand new student walks in thinking he can't successfully defend against any possible attack, and leaves knowing it for certain.
  9. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2013 1:13am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I believe that a brand new student walks in thinking he can't successfully defend against any possible attack, and leaves knowing it for certain.

    Right again. That's the difference between a realistic student and someone who's expecting to learn deadly secret oriental fighting moves in six easy lessons. I've decided that from now on I'm going to avoid getting dragged into those kinds of teaching situations by my senior instructors, and worry about my own training instead. Maybe MAs are not for general consumption after all. Most people who sign up for MA classes (with the exception of BJJ and possibly judo schools, which draw a different kind of crowd) expect to accomplish an awful lot for minimal effort, and are easily fooled into believing that all they need to do to become fighting machines is sign the contract and show up for a couple of hours a week.

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