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  1. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 5:21am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Padding out the self defence

    So, a friend of mine teaches self defence courses.
    These are mostly theory stuff; law, avoidance of dodgy situations, don't rohypnol your own drinks before you go out... that kind of stuff.


    It also has a physical element, though at the moment that's not the focus.
    That's the standard hands out shouting at people to stay away, followed by slaps and groin kicks. You know the kind of thing.


    Anywho, lately he's been looking into adrenaline training and such, and in particular one of these big padded suits like a Bulletman or a Predator Suit (the one with the big helmet).


    He's heading this way on the basis that it offers "realistic training".
    No problem with that, except that it seems a BIG investment (well into the thousands) being made on the basis of a "realism" that may not be the case.


    I suggested that feedback here may be more honest than that he might get from colleagues and friends, so what do you think?


    I'll lay my own cards on the table here first, and say I've seen videos of these kinds of things, and to me it still has that same issue that only one party is doing the fighting. Like padwork, except much more fun because someone is wearing the pads.


    I personally don't think that anything other than the theory of general safe behaviour is going to have much effect on these kinds of one-off short courses. If it's physical stuff, and you aren't regularly training it, It's not going to happen for you when you need it.

    I've already used the phrase "Big Helmet", so no extra points for slipping that in (oo-er mrs), otherwise... over to you




    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  2. gold_ax666 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 5:42am


     Style: MMA BJJ TKD

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's a f**king big helmet!

    I may be missing something here but I don't get the point of someone wearing something that is a completely different shape to a normal head. I mean, even a fencing or kendo mask provides protection whilst being a better shape, doesn't it?

    I agree with you in that a padded out attacker isn't hitting back with any level of realism so you are left with an attacker unable to attack really as a 'punch bag'.

    There are loads of sets of pads out there for less money than your friend is expecting to spend too which provides some basic protection for the body, thighs, shins, groin etc.

    It's a very subjective topic and depends on the level of realism required. To be as realistic as possible would be to wear as few pads as possible! Bring safety into the mix and padding is required but not so much so that the 'attacker' is rendered incapable of attack.

    Personally I would rather practice my martial arts, absorb the theory of being safe in the right way and use protective wear in the 'traditional' way i.e. hand, groin, gumshield [add more here for whatever style you might practice]

    Good luck to your mate though.
  3. Fuzzy is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 5:51am


     Style: HEMA/FMA(Hiatus)

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is problematic.

    In my experience this type of heavy padding is good for training timid people to cut loose in self-defense situations - "Its ok honey, you can go apeshit on him, you can't hurt him through the armour". But in the end you're training people to fight someone in a giant, restrictive rubber suit and, as we all know, you fight how you train.

    I think it fails as a realistic training tool and could even have a negative impact on his students by giving them false confidence.
  4. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 6:52am

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     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it's not realistic because the attacker can be neutralised like this:

    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  5. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 8:09am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ blue, judo ikkyu

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's good for coaching timid people to let loose.

    It doesn't teach any fighting skills and is liable to provide false confidence, because Big Helmet isn't meaningfully fighting back.

    I don't know how to square this circle: I want people looking for self-defense to train at least a little, but I also want them to realize the limitations of their training. I mean...a little pad work is better than nothing, but a little pad work and the belief that they're a badass is worse than nothing. Maybe follow up "beat up the guy in the suit" with "someone your size or smaller holds you down and prevents you from mounting any offense at all"?
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  6. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 10:26am


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The best scenario-based stress testing program I've seen is run by a karate guy that I know over in England, actually. The trouble is that it's really designed for martial artists, not average people taking a self defense seminar. He has everyone (participants and "actors") wearing Spartan Gear, which is just enough protection to keep you from getting severely injured, but you can still move freely and getting hit still hurts. They go through an acclimation process, where they run through the scenarios slow and light, and work up to full speed, and as close to full power as they can. Both the participants and the actors end up getting hit, kicked, thrown, etc., and regular people are NOT going to put up with that level of contact.

    There is really only so much we can do to make self defense training realistic. At some point, you have to address safety issues. As soon as you do that, you compromise the realism. With self defense seminars, the participants just don't get enough time to develop real skills and fortitude in the face of adversity to do more effective training. With that in mind, padded suits are probably their best option. They aren't THE best option, but for that type of setting, I don't know that there is anything better. The REDMAN suit is better than the Predator or Bullet suits, though, in my opinion.

    Now, I say all that, but those seminars do actually help some people protect themselves. A teenage girl just recently (or she at least posted a video about it recently) got grabbed by a man on a walking trail, who tried to drag her into the woods, and she elbowed him until he let go and she ran away. She credited a recent self defense seminar at her school for teaching her to do it. Clearly, something is better than nothing.
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 11:12am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    So, a friend of mine teaches self defence courses.
    These are mostly theory stuff; law, avoidance of dodgy situations, don't rohypnol your own drinks before you go out... that kind of stuff.


    It also has a physical element, though at the moment that's not the focus.
    That's the standard hands out shouting at people to stay away, followed by slaps and groin kicks. You know the kind of thing.


    Anywho, lately he's been looking into adrenaline training and such, and in particular one of these big padded suits like a Bulletman or a Predator Suit (the one with the big helmet).


    He's heading this way on the basis that it offers "realistic training".
    No problem with that, except that it seems a BIG investment (well into the thousands) being made on the basis of a "realism" that may not be the case.


    I suggested that feedback here may be more honest than that he might get from colleagues and friends, so what do you think?


    I'll lay my own cards on the table here first, and say I've seen videos of these kinds of things, and to me it still has that same issue that only one party is doing the fighting. Like padwork, except much more fun because someone is wearing the pads.


    I personally don't think that anything other than the theory of general safe behaviour is going to have much effect on these kinds of one-off short courses. If it's physical stuff, and you aren't regularly training it, It's not going to happen for you when you need it.

    I've already used the phrase "Big Helmet", so no extra points for slipping that in (oo-er mrs), otherwise... over to you


    I think the armor is good for letting people "cut loose" on an "attacker", especially people who are "normal" and do not engage in any sort of physical conflict on a regular basis (as in training combat sport). Just look how excited they were in the "debrief" to have done what they did (not, no sound at work so I didn't listen to comments). That sort of adrenaline rush is not something most folks are accustomed to.

    The huge padded head seems a bit unrealistic, but, for neophytes, probably a good thing, as it's easier to hit. The "attacker" gave up pretty quickly in a couple of circumstances, however, not unlike any other training, students need success in drills, not a beatdown (all the time at least).
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. Chili Pepper is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 11:23am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Once we get over the caveat that quickie self-defence courses probably don't do much, we have to look at what they can actually accomplish.

    Can they teach effective fighting? Doubtful, but for the vast majority of participants, that's not achievable because they can't will themselves to throw a hard punch anyway. Take a room full of high school girls and tell each one to yell in turn (individually, not as a group where they have some anonymity) and the majority of them will be too embarrassed to really give it a shot.

    If you've never hit someone/something with violence before, the barrier is not having the knowledge of how to throw a proper jab/cross/hook, it's accessing the violence.
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 11:30am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    Once we get over the caveat that quickie self-defence courses probably don't do much, we have to look at what they can actually accomplish.

    Can they teach effective fighting? Doubtful, but for the vast majority of participants, that's not achievable because they can't will themselves to throw a hard punch anyway. Take a room full of high school girls and tell each one to yell in turn (individually, not as a group where they have some anonymity) and the majority of them will be too embarrassed to really give it a shot.

    If you've never hit someone/something with violence before, the barrier is not having the knowledge of how to throw a proper jab/cross/hook, it's accessing the violence.
    Last paragraph is so true...although some people seem more naturally combative...don't know if it's nature nurture or some combination.

    Participation in some sort of full contact combat sport is so important to get into that as frame of mind as well. But that doesn't happen much, hence the armored suits.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2015 12:47pm


     Style: FMA

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's important for a self defense class to explain to attendees what they are going to get from said class. For your average class technical ability is not in the cards. Self defense should be changed to fighting back or resistance classes. Is the average self defense class gonna prepare you to handle a violent aggressor that is determined to do harm to you at all costs? I'd say no. Most self defense classes will teach a person that by being aware and resisting a person they may be able to avoid a potentially bad situation.

    The red man suit is about the same as hitting the heavy bag imo, except that the suit psychologically makes the strikes a little more realistic. But the guy on the suit never fights back or strikes. He half heartedly attacks and gives up, maybe squirms around some but he is far from defeated. It takea regular training to gain the technical ability to overcome an attacker and seminar attendees should know this. I think it would be better for the defender to at least wear a head gear with face shield while they defend the red man so that they can at least experience someone coming back with aggression, even if it's only light slaps.
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