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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/26/2013 10:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    So a parent raising children properly is providing NOTHING to society?
    Define properly? Cause most of us who raise kids to be productive members of society are already productive members of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Someone programming free software that gets widely used in industry provides NOTHING to society?
    Please name free software widely used in industry that hasn't been monetized.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Tesla being quite poor, providing NOTHING worthwhile for society?
    The work that Tesla did do that changed society made westinghouse and Tesla plenty of money. The work he did later didn't change society, as you can see society found no value in it. We still don't other than to tell myths about a man. That however is more about the people creating and profiting of the myths about Tesla than the man himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    A banker earning lets say hundred times more than a nurse is hundred times more valuable than the nurse for society?
    Define banker and nurse. Your typical "banker" doesn't make ****. A Bank mangers salary ranges from about 40k-100k depending on the branch. Personal bankers earn roughly the same.
    Nurses also have a large pay range depending on the type of nurse they make from 20k-90k depending on once again the services they actually provide society. A nurse practinor that provides more or less Dr. level service for medicine of convince makes decent money more than most "bankers".
    Now the bankers that make the real money provide a really important role in our society these are investment bankers. What they provide is liquidity and stability to markets. So yes an investment banker who makes 10x what even a nurse practitioner does provide a bigger role to society as a whole. With out them buying say Wheat futures your grocery store would look pretty barren and you wouldn't have a clue what prices your going to be paying for every day items from one week to the next. They are the pillars of the markets you use every day. Fuel, Food, everything you see around you they have had their hand in helping to bring to the market place for your consumption. So yes I would say the guy who keeps my fuel prices stable and available has done a hell of a lot more for society easily in the 10x range than one freaking nurse. That is to not say the nurse isn't important they are in that 20-90k range important.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Market value and value for society are different things. And no society is not all about money.
    Afraid you are wrong. Money is a good representation of the time and resources people invest in. Most people earn money by trading a skill set and their time for it. As should be painfully aware to you everyone's time has a different values. Usally that value is set by someone being willing or able to do something that other people cannot and this is where their value to society comes from. If you have a skill other people can't do that society needs or wants then you end up with more money. Representing a larger chunk of societies resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    We call streets after the Curie family even though they were piss poor.
    What the **** you talking about they where giving Nobel prizes which come with a hefty sum of money. Looks like society rewarded them for their achievements.
  2. atheistmantis is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2013 11:13pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Measure money against the lives that I had the honor of being a large part of saving when I worked as a critical care trauma nurse. Yes, I made decent money doing so but I sure as hell earned it. Money isn't everything. Not to me.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/26/2013 11:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by atheistmantis View Post
    Measure money against the lives that I had the honor of being a large part of saving when I worked as a critical care trauma nurse. Yes, I made decent money doing so but I sure as hell earned it. Money isn't everything. Not to me.
    We already do, a vist to a critical care unit is hardly free. It has a monetary value, one that suggest that a human life is worth quite a bit.
  4. Charles Brown is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 12:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey dude. You on a boat? What's your rate? I was a TM2(SS).
  5. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 6:30am


     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From reading on in this thread it seems that the main beef (pardon the expression) with obesity is that it's a lifestyle disease - a problem that is preventable or the risk greatly reduced by adapting the lifestyle, diet or environment.

    It's far from the only one though, and I think that if one is going to be resentful regarding the high price to society due to obesity then it's surprising that nobody's brought up other lifestyle diseases that are just as, if not more, costly. Things like smoking and excessive drinking are just as preventable and damaging to the individual's health and can be just as addictive as sugar, fat and the sensory satisfaction of consumption.

    In the UK there are major problems with both obesity and excessive alcohol consumption. According to the National Obesity Observatory the social cost of obesity in the UK in 2007 was approximately £15.8 billion, including £4.2 billion to the NHS.

    Alcohol Concern UK shows, however, that the cost of excessive alcohol consumption in the UK in 2007 was £17 - £22 billion, including £2.7 billion a year to the NHS. (links to the data sources used on each page are provided in footnotes).

    The main public service that's being focussed on in this thread is, of course, the healthcare service. While the direct cost of drinking to the healthcare service is smaller than that of obesity, it has a much bigger impact on things like police services, councils having to cover littering and amenities/property damage, and costs to the healthcare service for injuries sustained while intoxicated (either to the drinker or those around them). I'm not sure about the US but the UK also has a pretty hectic problem with pregnant mothers drinking heavily, which can cause an immense range of complications in the offspring. There is also the issue of antisocial behaviour, as intoxicated people may become loud or aggressive or expel various bodily fluids where they're not wanted.

    My point is that while obesity is definitely a drain on public resources, is preventable, treatable by changes to lifestyle and can have disastrous consequences for the individual, it's by no means the only one. It's precisely because these are lifestyle diseases that they have to be tackled as a social issue, examining the causes as well as the end result and addressing both. It's all very well to want to exclude these people from the health service or give them the cold shoulder in the street, but I don't think that's actually going to solve the problem. There are just too many social reinforcers for the behaviour that causes these diseases in the first place, and without treating the issues as a whole it doesn't matter how many drinkers or fatties drop dead - much to the grief of their families - there will be platoons more to take their place.

    For anyone who wants to read more I've hyperlinked my sources in the body of the text.
  6. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 6:43am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Brown View Post
    Hey dude. You on a boat? What's your rate? I was a TM2(SS).
    I assume you're talking to me - I was QM2 - almost got my cutlasses, but the board was scheduled for after my re-up, which I declined at the last minute.
  7. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 7:14am


     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For sure. I suppose it's too much to hope for that a sugar tax will stop companies pumping it into products it has no business being in. I made a big cut in the amount of carbohydrate I ate a while ago and was completely shocked that the supposedly healthy foods I had been buying were nearly packed with the stuff!
  8. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 9:49am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the problem with that would come in by making sugar as prohibitively expensive as tobacco products. Taxing it would absolutely raise revenue and increase prices of sugary products, but I'm not sure that making sugar so expensive that cost would be the restraining factor in consumption would make it past the food industry lobbyists.
  9. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 9:57am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not to mention the more fundamental problem that such a measure is essentially a declaration that poor Joe Citizen is too stupid to make decisions for himself and needs wise mommy government to tell him what's good for him by spanking him on the wallet.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 10:01am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Katje View Post
    From reading on in this thread it seems that the main beef (pardon the expression) with obesity is that it's a lifestyle disease - a problem that is preventable or the risk greatly reduced by adapting the lifestyle, diet or environment.

    It's far from the only one though, and I think that if one is going to be resentful regarding the high price to society due to obesity then it's surprising that nobody's brought up other lifestyle diseases that are just as, if not more, costly. Things like smoking and excessive drinking are just as preventable and damaging to the individual's health and can be just as addictive as sugar, fat and the sensory satisfaction of consumption.
    Yep, but the thread was talking about obesity and making Dana White start a program. If we start meandering we can talk about obesity, Monsanto, drugs, guns and everything you just named.
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