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  1. catfishaggie is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2013 10:42am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Okay, I assumed wrong...sorry about that, I don't know at what point in the thread you might have stopped to post a response because it would always just show up at the end of the thread...other comments in "Great Wall of text" have referred to a ridiculously long response I posted for IIF a little ways back...

    The original discussion I was involved in here was predominantly between myself, Goodlun, and Permalost...if you scroll back you'll see a lot of the posts are pretty much this long. Posts I've made on other threads are nothing like this, but this topic is different...really more of a philosophical debate, and those aren't always brief.

    I agree with what you say, and generally your correct. The only reason I'm still writing on this thread is because Goodlun still seems up for having a real discussion...all the insults and such aside, he's still supporting his position with real input, not just flaming.

    I respect that, so I'm responding to him. There is no "win" with this kind of thing. Goodlun and I will never fully agree on this issue. But, the discussion is interesting.
    It is referred to everything you have posted in here. If you can not make your point in three paragraphs then you have no point. There exceptions to this such as an article or using a ton of citations (which is a good thing). I suspect you don't have one though and just trying to one of those guys.
  2. Keslet is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2013 7:37pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    No, you really don't disagree. You and Permalost didn't pay attention to what he wrote.


    Neither one of you, nor really anyone, have argued against this position. Actually, minus PL's drug argument, you've actually provided examples to support this statement. The problem is YOU moved the goal posts and tried to change his argument.

    That's why he flamed you and used your job as a point of reference. You even used the importance of who you helped and your low pay to support the quote above. You are arguing what you have inserted into his argument, not his actual position.

    Fair enough, I can respond to that. I'm going to include quotes and examples, so it'll be longer than 3 paragraphs, just FYI...and, for those that would stop reading here, you are provably wrong on every point...see below for why.

    Some of the problem here is how we've defined terms...I address this in Post 244. In a nutshell, I never would have commented at all based on the quote you have there. In those terms, "Societal Value" doesn't exist...it's just another word for your income. Again, see Post 244 where this is clearly addressed.

    Thing is, what I've always been responding to is something else entirely...

    Way back in Post 88 Goodlun stated;
    "Originally Posted by killface
    Well it was only an theoretical example. The idea that usefulness for society can be measured by how much you get paid seems quite silly for me."

    "We get that you think its silly. Also I didn't say what you get paid I said your ability to generate money. A Dr Volunteering his time is doing something good for society. He isn't making money doing so. However that time has a value = the market rate for his service. THAT MARKET RATE IS A GOOD INDICATION OF HOW MUCH GOOD HE IS DOING FOR SOCIETY. " (my emphasis)

    I also have a post that is loaded with examples of Goodlun making similar statements (186). Please reference.

    Does Goodlun also have plenty of quotes like the one you have there? Sure does, which is the "Incoherence" I mentioned in post 244. His position, and meaning of terms being used, keeps shifting.

    I'm pretty clear that I'm responding to Goodlun's arguments of the first type...

    Post 139- Keslet's first post:
    "I'm intrigued by some of the statements I'm reading here. Are we really saying that an individuals income is a reasonable metric for their worth to society and, by extension, as a human being?"

    There are plenty of other examples where I restate that this is what I'm talking about. I'm consistent on this throughout. My goalposts really don't change. My last post giving an argument to his position is 244, where I'm wrapping up with:

    "So, given the benefit to society from their actions, and the risks/costs involved in performing those actions, I would say that their "Societal Value" is quite high. "

    So, I have a really clear understanding of what I'm talking about, and it's definitely (one of) Goodlun's position(s). My arguments, like with firefighters, are in direct support of my counter position.

    Goodlun started flaming me over using IT as an example, not for misunderstanding his position. His flaming (including referencing my profession) all revolved around value to society as an expression of importance, contribution, impact, etc. Nothing to do with the point he's making in the quote you have there. this is all in Post 142, where we find this statement:

    "Folks if you want to make good money you have to do 1 of 2 things.

    Do something other people will not do.

    Do something other people can not do.

    As you can see these 2 things both PROVIDE MORE TO SOCIETY than doing something everyone is willing to do and something that everyone is capable of doing. " (Emph. Mine)

    Again, clearly relating to his position that I'm debating, nothing to do with the quote you posted. This has little to do with societies subjective impression of an individuals worth or messed up priorities, but with the idea that annual income is a valid and reliable metric of an individuals ACTUAL contribution to society and worth as a human being.

    You have misunderstood just about everything that has gone on here.
    Last edited by Keslet; 9/22/2013 7:53pm at .
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2013 8:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    I just realized we are back where YOU started.


    You have misunderstood just about everything that has gone on here.
    Irony. You changed his entire argument to fit your arrogance and I misunderstood? Yes, keep telling yourself that if it makes you sleep better at night. You can put that feather in the same cap with "OMGERD, I called out a senior staff member."
    Last edited by It is Fake; 9/22/2013 9:09pm at .
  4. Keslet is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2013 6:56am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post


    I just realized we are back where YOU started.

    Irony. You changed his entire argument to fit your arrogance and I misunderstood? Yes, keep telling yourself that if it makes you sleep better at night. You can put that feather in the same cap with "OMGERD, I called out a senior staff member."
    Let me get this straight, I'm the one responsible for the position explicitly stated in Goodlun's own words in Goodlun's own posts?

    How does that work, exactly? Wait...am...am I Goodlun?
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2013 7:39am

    staff
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Nu unh this IS WHAT YOU said because I SAID SO after Cherry picking.
    You are the one explicitly responsible for TELLING people what their words mean. Yes, even after they give you explanations, definitions and examples as to why you misinterpreted their statements.

    No, you aren't goodlun. You are a guy who says he can admit when he is wrong, but 25 "walls of text" later it turns out it was a completely self serving statement.
  6. Keslet is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2013 8:39am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You are the one explicitly responsible for TELLING people what their words mean. Yes, even after they give you explanations, definitions and examples as to why you misinterpreted their statements.

    No, you aren't goodlun. You are a guy who says he can admit when he is wrong, but 25 "walls of text" later it turns out it was a completely self serving statement.
    It Is Fake, read Post 251 again, or better yet Goodlun's post that I quoted from (88). Killface flat out says that he disagrees with Goodlun about income representing "usefulness" to society, and Goodlun doesn't say Killface misunderstood or misstated his position, Goodlun DEFENDS THAT POSITION. This is very different from saying that society has messed up priorities and gives value to things with no benefit...this is flat out saying that he is talking about the actual contribution to society that individuals are making.

    This was all established before I ever read the thread...my first post wasn't until 139. I didn't have to change anything, it's right there in black and white. I also give plenty of examples where Goodlun makes this some argument again and again.

    This has always been the portion of his position I am responding to...I don't know how to say it any clearer than that.
  7. catfishaggie is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2013 9:08am


     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Post number 88 was Doof not Goodlun brah. I'm glad to see you learned how to use the quote function.

    What does any of your rantings have to do with Dana White and the request that he makes some sort of UFC style Biggest Loser for fatties?
  8. Keslet is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2013 11:48am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by catfishaggie View Post
    Post number 88 was Doof not Goodlun brah. I'm glad to see you learned how to use the quote function.

    What does any of your rantings have to do with Dana White and the request that he makes some sort of UFC style Biggest Loser for fatties?
    Whoops, thanks for pointing that out, Post 89 is where Goodlun's quotes come from. Sorry about the errors, Im generally using an iphone when I'm on here, so little screen ,middle-aged eyes, and no app (at least last I checked there was only an app for Android).

    As for the other, this thread moved on to this topic long before I got on it...they had a whole go around with Killface on this same issue, as shown by post 89. Definitely did not start with me...I'm just carrying on the discussion.
    Last edited by Keslet; 9/23/2013 11:54am at .
  9. Keslet is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2013 7:01pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damn, looks like most of the post numbers I referred to are off by one. That's irritating! Hopefully if anyone was interested enough to look (big if) they were able to figure it out...
  10. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/27/2013 5:31pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Damn, looks like most of the post numbers I referred to are off by one. That's irritating! Hopefully if anyone was interested enough to look (big if) they were able to figure it out...



    This is why i said you're a lazy asshole and should learn to use the quote function.

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