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  1. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2013 8:07pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Your previous posts make this a lie.
    Which utterly contradicts your claim of admitting your mistakes and appreciating a real effort..


    You appreciate his effort by not reading his posts. LOL.
    My previous posts like this one?

    " I respect that he seems to sincerely believe what he's saying. That's why I'm still talking to him. Like I said before, if he was just trolling and being argumentative I would have moved on. He's not, so we're talking."

    Right, you're still itching for a fight evidently.

    Okay, you've been acting like a dick on this thread. Reasons why I think so are in MegaPost 2000.

    You know, there really something to be said for this conciseness thing!

    P.S. I did read that particular Goodlun post. You're clue might have been my response to it.
    Last edited by Keslet; 9/20/2013 8:10pm at .
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/20/2013 8:58pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    My previous posts like this one?
    Which came well after you retracted the olive branch.



    Okay, you've been acting like a dick on this thread.
    LOL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    **** You.

    (Not directed at Goodlun, but the thread commentary trend)
    Hell, you made an abused woman joke, after telling us about your health care work.

    As evidenced above, no different than your hypocritical ass. I just eliminated the hypocrisy, crying, and butt hurt and I used less words.
    P.S. I did read that particular Goodlun post. You're clue might have been my response to it.
    So, you are a liar, and that means you did not respect his argument. My point still stands. Even when you are concise, you still make mistakes, they are just easier to point out.

    Still itching for a fight? LOL, you never ended this one.
  3. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2013 9:26pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Which came well after you retracted the olive branch.



    LOL.

    Hell, you made an abused woman joke, after telling us about your health care work.

    As evidenced above, no different than your hypocritical ass. I just eliminated the hypocrisy, crying, and butt hurt and I used less words.
    So, you are a liar, and that means you did not respect his argument. My point still stands. Even when you are concise, you still make mistakes, they are just easier to point out.

    Still itching for a fight? LOL, you never ended this one.

    Uh huh...so you troll the thread throwing out comments you can't be bothered to support, and NOW you suddenly have the motivation to go searching for quotes and examples? You're finally willing to engage in a real exchange?

    How brave of you. I actually call out a senior staff member of the site on his BULLSHIT, a site with "No BS" plastered all over it, and all you want to do is keep playing games like any other punk troll. Now you have more of an audience and you suddenly develop the testicular fortitude to back up what you say?

    You know what? I think I'm good. I've already spent the time writing out what I wanted to say, and it's all there for you champ. The fact that you are now doing exactly what I said you should have been doing from the start? Pretty much proves my point.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 12:00am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Uh huh...so you troll the thread throwing out comments you can't be bothered to support, and NOW you suddenly have the motivation to go searching for quotes and examples?
    I used two of your quotes, to prove you were being "sarcastic." You admitted I was correct, but tried to downplay it as "snarky. So, that negates your claim of "suddenly."

    That was done well before you had to refresh your memory with Purdue Owl. It was also done before you suggested I support claims.
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 12:55am

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Well, of course I get it, but here's the problem...what we were talking about was the idea of a persons value to society being fairly represented by their annual income. Well, occupation has a really significant impact on annual income, right? So that opens up an examination of the societal value of occupations. Yeah, it's touchy, but its intellectually honest to go there. Actually it's kinda hard to avoid it, IMO.
    This was already examined well before you got involved. Every point you made had already been touched upon. You didn't even really add anymore depth with the exception of the IT example vs your job(note not vs the fireman job). Which really was more about you being frustrated about the fact that you perceive yourself as having to had worked harder and be more intelligent to get your position in society than the average "IT Professional" yet they make more than you do. Some how this inequity disproved what I was saying.

    Unfortunately it doesn't you just made a bad career choice if your worried about being valued by society. On the plus side its given you plenty to feel nice and smug about so their is always that.

    I do have one question though why is it virtually every person with a psychology degree think that they are so damn smart? It is a pretty damn easy major that about 100,000 people graduate from school with?

    Now I will admit I have a hard science's bias and run in those circles so the fact I consider it a joke of a degree is probably greatly colored by that.
  6. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 4:48am


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    This was already examined well before you got involved. Every point you made had already been touched upon. You didn't even really add anymore depth with the exception of the IT example vs your job(note not vs the fireman job). Which really was more about you being frustrated about the fact that you perceive yourself as having to had worked harder and be more intelligent to get your position in society than the average "IT Professional" yet they make more than you do. Some how this inequity disproved what I was saying.

    Unfortunately it doesn't you just made a bad career choice if your worried about being valued by society. On the plus side its given you plenty to feel nice and smug about so their is always that.

    I do have one question though why is it virtually every person with a psychology degree think that they are so damn smart? It is a pretty damn easy major that about 100,000 people graduate from school with?

    Now I will admit I have a hard science's bias and run in those circles so the fact I consider it a joke of a degree is probably greatly colored by that.
    True, not much new was added, but the discussion never really got off the ground before rocketing off on the IT tangent...in my opinion there are interesting issues to discuss down that road, but we never really had a chance to discuss it. This goes back to my first post on this thread where I mention a couple of assumptions that would appear to be necessary for your viewpoint to be accurate...the first one is some mechanism for balancing out salaries ACROSS professions so we aren't getting a bunch of variance based simply on job title. Something like that anyway...it would have evolved through discussion ideally.

    I never said I'm smarter than any of the other people I mentioned, just that my field required a longer period of training than I had observed for the friends who had changed careers to move into IT. I also don't resent my job. Again, I'm not that guy who bitches and moans about how "unfair" life is...I make a comfortable living and I have a high level of job satisfaction. In that sense I consider myself fortunate. Imagine if I had done years of training and sacrifice to be able to do this job, came out with mountains of student loans to repay, then realized I HATED doing it! That was a real worry I had while I was in grad school, but sometimes you just have to take the plunge.

    To be honest, without self-disclosing too much, my brother is one of the 5 I mentioned, and he recently received a pretty significant promotion. Before you start trying to do armchair psychoanalysis about sibling rivalry and what not, I'm honestly really happy for him, his wife, and my nieces...things were tight for awhile but now they're doing great. I was also very impressed with how well this has gone for him as he never finished college and had been managing a fast food place before making the switch. He did have some security clearances left over from his military days, though, which helped him land a job that had military contracts...

    There just aren't that many fields you can do that in, so it was fresh to mind.

    As for how all people with psychology degrees have overinflated senses of self-worth, I'm not sure I would use that broad of a brush. An associate or bachelors degree in psychology really is just a generic degree. You have to go much further than that to actually work professionally in the field (at least in ohio...some states do have bachelor level "assistant" or paraprofessional licenses available I believe). I expect that for most people those types of degrees are only useful for jobs where they just want applicants to have SOME type of degree.

    Graduate degrees are a different kettle of fish. Most programs are pretty selective ( so no guarantee of even being admitted to a program), then it can easily be 7+ years of direct schooling, unpaid or low paying practicums and internships, and dissertation writing.

    Even after that you have to do a certain number of post-doctoral supervised hours before your eligible to even apply for the written and oral licensure tests. It's no walk in the park, and in the grand scheme of things there aren't many folks who stick it out to that level.

    It's an accomplishment.
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 1:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post

    Classic depressionism never goes out of style.
  8. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 2:47pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @ Goodlun- Okay, I think I've got a way to take IT, or any other profession, out of the argument I was trying to make way back when...though let me clarify something first...

    Some of what has been leading to comments about misunderstanding, incoherence, and what not is that the term of "Societal Value" isn't really defined. I don't think you are saying that societal value is 100% captured by potential annual income, right? You agree that it is its own thing, maybe just well represented by someone's income?

    See, if not, then there really isn't anything to discuss...it's classic circular reasoning, with the terms under discussion really just being two names for the same thing. So, saying person 'A' earns more money each year because they are of more value to society, and we know they are of more value to society because they make more money...it's a closed loop. Can't argue with it but it also is meaningless as an argument for anything...

    So, assuming that you agree that "Societal Value" has independent meaning, there's another way to get at my point. Let's just stick with fire services. We would agree that fire personnel have real demonstrated value to society, yes? I know you addressed these types of professions earlier as a type of caveat, but this is a pretty big group of folks (as compared to some small group of outliers, like trying to make hay out of the salaries of pro football players), and you also did say something about the value society places on professions like these is really lip service (because if they really did value them they would show it with higher salaries, more or less)...so I think this profession can still be useful for this purpose. In fact, these types of professions might be a better example to use than most because members of society actually have some direct say on monies available to them (i.e., voting on levies and such).

    Okay, so they have value...I mean, if I'm in a bad car accident and firemen are tearing open the wreckage to get to me before I bleed out, at that moment they are the most valuable people in the world to me. This happens many times a day all over the country. Fireman also preserve assets easily worth billions of dollars a year, just looking at the direct monetary value...right now, out west, fire fighters have been working against wildfires in an effort to prevent whole communities from being wiped out completely.

    Apart from what they provide, there is also what they pay...one of the highest on-the-job mortality and serious injury and divorce rates of any profession in the country, and significant long term health effects, both mentally and physically, including much higher cancer rates. I put a link at the bottom of this post with actual statistics to reference.

    So, given the benefit to society from their actions, and the risks/costs involved in performing those actions, I would say that their "Societal Value" is quite high. A little googling informed me that average firefighter salary tends to be right around the overall median wage, which in Columbus, Ohio is the low $40k's. Yes, the average firefighter isn't starving, but this strikes me as far out of proportion to their actual value to society. I think giving up years of ones life to possibly save mine ranks somewhat higher than "Average".

    A finding that works even more against your argument, and surprised me to be honest, is that the vast majority of firefighters in the US are barely paid at all...I found stats that generally report 70-90% of firefighters in the nation are VOLUNTEERS! I knew volunteer fire departments weren't uncommon, but I had no idea they were a clear majority! Anyways, I would suggest that Communities still want and depend on their fire departments, but in many cases they apparently don't have the budget to pay the actual firefighters for their services.

    So definite value, with little to no income in return in many cases, and individuals providing the same services having incomes ranging from zero to (whatever)...I would think this would be a problem for your position. What do you think?


    http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...refighter.html
    Last edited by Keslet; 9/21/2013 3:03pm at .
  9. catfishaggie is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 5:01pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good god, that is a fucking Great Wall of Text.

    Let me give you some advice, there are times to speak and times to just shut up. This is one of those times where it is best that you shut up and walk away. At this point even if you "win" it is only going to be a Pyrrhic victory. It is for the betterment of everyone, including you.
  10. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2013 8:39pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by catfishaggie View Post
    Good god, that is a fucking Great Wall of Text.

    Let me give you some advice, there are times to speak and times to just shut up. This is one of those times where it is best that you shut up and walk away. At this point even if you "win" it is only going to be a Pyrrhic victory. It is for the betterment of everyone, including you.

    If I had to guess I would think this comment is directed at MEGAPOST 2000 written for IIF. Yep, you are totally correct...that post served its purpose (believe it or not) and was definitely a one-off. I'm not commenting on this thread anymore about anything other than the discussion Goodlun, Permalost, and I were having. If you see anywhere else I've commented (like the Naval Yard Shooter thread) my posts typically look nothing like that one.

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