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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 1:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW if you really wanted to poke a huge hole in my argument your best bet would to be to point out money earned through criminal pursuits. Then I would have had to start adding all sorts of caveats.
  2. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 2:08pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    BTW if you really wanted to poke a huge hole in my argument your best bet would to be to point out money earned through criminal pursuits. Then I would have had to start adding all sorts of caveats.
    I thought of that, but the working premise seems to be income through employment, so drug dealing doesn't meet the criteria.
  3. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 2:20pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Why yes of course! Don't fall for the same trap as the other gentleman that thinks value to society is the same as value as a human being.
    Does a baby have an inherent value to society at large? Yes of course. However where its real value is in its value to its family unit.
    See the baby has value as a human being it has value to those in its family and the what not.
    But let me ask you this. If my child got sick with cancer tomorrow how much are YOU willing to sacrifice for her sake? How much does she mean to society at large? How much are you going to care for her if me and my wife die? The truth is while we all go think of the childerns yet we really don't. They do tug at our heart strings so we are a bit more willing to open our purses for them in general. We do as a community deem somethings necessary for them a public education being one. Cause we hope that they grow up to become productive members or society at large.

    Throw a baby down a well, how much will society pay to get it out? Throw a baby into traffic, how many would risk their life to save it? Children have no income, but they could if we put them to work like we used to...they even work cheap...so why are there child labor laws?

    You have conviction, but you haven't thought it through...
    Last edited by Keslet; 9/18/2013 2:26pm at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 2:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Goodlun, I'm trying to respond to your platform, but you're all over the place! You were much more respectful and coherent to PL a few posts back, but not consistent.

    You: Yet we allow them to rule. At the end of the day we as a society allow the inequalities...we are just not that uncomfortable...too inconvenient to upset the status quo.
    Me: Christ, that sounds like a rationalization for an abusive relationship!
    You: No it's not, housing bubble/personal responsibility!

    But okay, you have convinced me...the free market influences income so well that annual potential income is a fair and reasonable measure of human value.

    Honey Boo Boo is 10x the human being you will ever be.
    You know what makes this entire argument sad? You expect him to take you seriously, when you responded to his point with a sarcastic tirade.

    You want respectful replies? Then post in a respectful manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    I'm intrigued by some of the statements I'm reading here. Are we really saying that an individuals income is a reasonable metric for their worth to society and, by extension, as a human being?

    For that to be true we would have to assume that a) earnings are balanced out across different types of work and fields (as I assume nobody would seriously make the argument that the average IT worker is a superior human being in comparison to the average firefighter, based solely on average annual income...other than possibly a bunch of IT workers), and b) salaries/ raises/ promotions/ bonuses are all allocated solely on objective merit...a true functioning meritocracy!

    I seem to recall some press following our most recent economic collapse...the financial "professionals" who had started the recessionary ball rolling were still working at their firms to try to "unwind" the tangled mess of arcane financial instruments that had been constructed to fleece just a bit more from their customers. They were outraged (outraged I say!) that they might not get their 500k-1mil+ BONUSES, because by god they had earned it! By bankrupting their respective firms in some cases, and tanking their customers portfolios. So they got the bonuses. Merit!

    I'm open-minded, though, so I'm going to check this out...living close to one of the larger cities in the country I've noticed certain neighborhoods that are made up almost entirely of homes that start north of half a million bucks and go up sharply from there...in the Midwest that's a lot, though I know in some other parts of the country this much money won't get u very far in housing. Anyways, while there are probably a portion of residents in these neighborhoods who are truly living beyond their means, most of these houses don't end up in bank-owned foreclosures, and would require size able incomes to purchase and maintain. There are literally thousands of these homes, and I've often wondered "Who ARE all these millionaires? What do they all do?"

    Well, maybe now I know...they are the best, brightest, and most innovative citizens in the metro area, representing a crosse-section of the most productive workers from all walks of life, who have risen to these gated enclaves by being the cream of humanity!

    I'm going to go there tomorrow...I can't wait to meet them!
    Yeah SARCASM. You set the tone, don't complain now.
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 2:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Throw a baby down a well, how much will society pay to get it out? Throw a baby into traffic, how many would risk their life to save it?
    Congratulations you almost actually formed a compelling argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Children have no income, but they could if we put them to work like we used to...they even work cheap...so why are there child labor laws?
  6. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:01pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You know what makes this entire argument sad? You expect him to take you seriously, when you responded to his point with a sarcastic tirade.

    You want respectful replies? Then post in a respectful manner.Yeah SARCASM. You set the tone, don't complain now.

    IIF I didn't complain about tone in the quote you posted initially...I said he isn't presenting a consistent platform to debate. My point about his response to PL was mostly that it was more coherent at least, so maybe he should try that? Because his more emotional responses to me are all over the place.

    As to my first post, yep, had some snark. Called out no one specifically, quoted no one directly, no personal attacks, not a single swear word. Hardly lobbing molotov's. It did, however, clearly identify my point of contention right from the outset, give two assumptions that underlie the point I take issue with that I find faulty, then extended the reasoning behind those assumptions to their logical conclusions, which is ridiculous. This illustrates why I believe them faulty. It's not the most respectful rhetorical technique, but it does serve a purpose other than just being obnoxious.

    For an idle post I free wrote on my phone I thought it wasn't too bad. Yeah, sarcasm is counterproductive most of the time, but it was too harsh for this board?

    BTW, I would have thought that you would appreciate a structured argument from a noob poster (whether agreed with or not), but instead you've made two comments on my tone. Looking back over the posts, it looks like Flame ratio is about 10:1 between Goodlun and me...I appreciate that your reading and commenting on the thread, but are u just saying I should shut up and agree with Goodlun because he's senior on the board? I mean, I'm enjoying it now that I've determined he isn't just trolling (I'm pretty sure), but I've also been taking it REALLY easy on him, and that's apparently still too much...all I've done to this point is get him to publicly admit he compares unfavorably to Honey Boo Boo...
  7. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    BTW if you really wanted to poke a huge hole in my argument your best bet would to be to point out money earned through criminal pursuits. Then I would have had to start adding all sorts of caveats.
    Criminal pursuits between consenting adults seem like the Money Spent = Value model you've already discussed, IMHO. If I grow/manufacture drugs and people buy them because they enjoy them, am I not creating value the way a brewer does? If I'm a prostitute that's well paid, am I not creating value like a personal trainer or legal dom?
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Criminal pursuits between consenting adults seem like the Money Spent = Value model you've already discussed, IMHO. If I grow/manufacture drugs and people buy them because they enjoy them, am I not creating value the way a brewer does? If I'm a prostitute that's well paid, am I not creating value like a personal trainer or legal dom?
    See here is where it can get tricky, I agree if your growing a ton of pot and selling it your probably creating value and wealth. However if your running say an extortion racket your not creating any value just being parasitic. Now we can certainly argue there are plenty of parasitic legitimate jobs as well.

    We can also argue that while yes someone in the drug trade is creating new wealth but on the other hand the trading of drugs is also meet with a lot of counter productive things such as violence and murder. Of course to counter point that plenty of legitimate businesses also do damage as well. All though this damage is typically more socially acceptable than murder.

    Opps you said consenting adults which makes everything you said 100% true.
  9. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:15pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Criminal pursuits between consenting adults seem like the Money Spent = Value model you've already discussed, IMHO. If I grow/manufacture drugs and people buy them because they enjoy them, am I not creating value the way a brewer does? If I'm a prostitute that's well paid, am I not creating value like a personal trainer or legal dom?
    That starting point was societal value, so I was running under the assumption that we were talking about income from societally approved sources...though that was just an assumption. For your point, prostitution is legal in some places in the US, so maybe that's a fair one. My first thought was something that no sane person would say has societal benefit, like kiddie porn, which then does generate income (so presumably value to society, a contradiction)...
  10. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:57pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    societal benefit
    Aww I found the crux of your problem here you think social value == social benefit

    People are self destructive we often value things of no benefit.
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