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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Criminal pursuits between consenting adults seem like the Money Spent = Value model you've already discussed, IMHO. If I grow/manufacture drugs and people buy them because they enjoy them, am I not creating value the way a brewer does? If I'm a prostitute that's well paid, am I not creating value like a personal trainer or legal dom?
    See here is where it can get tricky, I agree if your growing a ton of pot and selling it your probably creating value and wealth. However if your running say an extortion racket your not creating any value just being parasitic. Now we can certainly argue there are plenty of parasitic legitimate jobs as well.

    We can also argue that while yes someone in the drug trade is creating new wealth but on the other hand the trading of drugs is also meet with a lot of counter productive things such as violence and murder. Of course to counter point that plenty of legitimate businesses also do damage as well. All though this damage is typically more socially acceptable than murder.

    Opps you said consenting adults which makes everything you said 100% true.
  2. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:15pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Criminal pursuits between consenting adults seem like the Money Spent = Value model you've already discussed, IMHO. If I grow/manufacture drugs and people buy them because they enjoy them, am I not creating value the way a brewer does? If I'm a prostitute that's well paid, am I not creating value like a personal trainer or legal dom?
    That starting point was societal value, so I was running under the assumption that we were talking about income from societally approved sources...though that was just an assumption. For your point, prostitution is legal in some places in the US, so maybe that's a fair one. My first thought was something that no sane person would say has societal benefit, like kiddie porn, which then does generate income (so presumably value to society, a contradiction)...
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 3:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    societal benefit
    Aww I found the crux of your problem here you think social value == social benefit

    People are self destructive we often value things of no benefit.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 4:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    IIF I didn't complain about tone in the quote you posted initially...I said he isn't presenting a consistent platform to debate. My point about his response to PL was mostly that it was more coherent at least, so maybe he should try that? Because his more emotional responses to me are all over the place.
    Read my post again and ask yourself where I said you complained about tone. I am laughing at you talking about emotional responses, have you looked at your own posts? I know I await the dissertation about "that's not emotional."
    As to my first post, yep, had some snark.
    Yes, this is EXACTLY what I just said. THAT'S YOU setting the tone for goodlun's response.
    BTW, I would have thought that you would appreciate a structured argument from a noob poster (
    Seriously? You thought I'd appreciate a poorly worded argument full of logical fallacies? ME? Of all the people on this website? Me? Really?
    Are you trolling?

    Tell you what, I'll leave the psychobabble to you, you leave the semantic word games to me?
  5. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 4:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    That starting point was societal value, so I was running under the assumption that we were talking about income from societally approved sources...though that was just an assumption.
    Does all of society have to approve for it to have societal value? Probably not, since there are plenty of legal enterprises I don't approve yet I must concede that they are contributing to society in goodlun's sense (Maxim magazine, mainstream news, the tobacco industry, Twilight publishers). If our dollars speak for the value of what we buy, drug dealers/producers are a valuable resource to American society.
  6. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 5:43pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Does all of society have to approve for it to have societal value? Probably not, since there are plenty of legal enterprises I don't approve yet I must concede that they are contributing to society in goodlun's sense (Maxim magazine, mainstream news, the tobacco industry, Twilight publishers). If our dollars speak for the value of what we buy, drug dealers/producers are a valuable resource to American society.

    This is one of the aspects that is making this discussion a little hard to follow...we keep flipping back and forth from the viewpoint of individuals to a more macro view of society at large.

    In answer to your question, I think the discussion makes the most sense when thought of in terms of the greater society we live in. We can always find individual exceptions, but the initial point I had an issue with was global, income potential equals human value across all strata.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 5:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    If our dollars speak for the value of what we buy, drug dealers/producers are a valuable resource to American society.
    I guess you are correct. Further evidence beside the massive industry can be found in our various forms of media as well. Movies, books, songs, TV all try and depicate various aspects of this culture. Heck look at how popular Breaking Bad is.
  8. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 6:06pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    This is one of the aspects that is making this discussion a little hard to follow...we keep flipping back and forth from the viewpoint of individuals to a more macro view of society at large.
    Well, any particular benefit someone is making for society is very unlikely to benefit every single member, but America has 13 million people spending $60 billion a year on drugs. Seems macro enough.
  9. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 6:45pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Read my post again and ask yourself where I said you complained about tone. I am laughing at you talking about emotional responses, have you looked at your own posts? I know I await the dissertation about "that's not emotional."
    Yes, this is EXACTLY what I just said. THAT'S YOU setting the tone for goodlun's response.
    Seriously? You thought I'd appreciate a poorly worded argument full of logical fallacies? ME? Of all the people on this website? Me? Really?
    Are you trolling?

    Tell you what, I'll leave the psychobabble to you, you leave the semantic word games to me?

    Wow, I'm really disappointed at this response. Not being a smartass, seriously disappointed. As I've read other threads over the past months I've respected your voice, typically clear and cuts through the bullshit.

    Okay, let's go...

    "Read my post again and ask yourself where I said you complained about tone"

    Okay

    "You want respectful replies? Then post in a respectful manner.Yeah SARCASM. You set the TONE, don't COMPLAIN now." (Emphasis mine)

    That wasn't hard. It's unlike you to make these kinds of errors, from what I've seen.

    "I am laughing at you talking about emotional responses, have you looked at your own posts? I know I await the dissertation about "that's not emotional."

    Yes, I've reread the whole thread just now (again, respect your opinion so rechecked). I'm emotional at times, never claimed not to be (anywhere). Markedly less than Goodlun though, despite a number of personal attacks. More than a dozen instances of being told I personally am of little use to society, a luxury, wouldn't even be noticed if I disappeared tomorrow, chose to do a feel good job instead of something more productive, actually probably make more than many people worth more to society. There's also my shitty ego, my inflated sense of worth to society, and so on. My personal attacks on Goodlun? Take a look. Yes, clearly it is I with the emotional issue.

    "Seriously? You thought I'd appreciate a poorly worded argument full of logical fallacies? ME? Of all the people on this website? Me? Really?
    Are you trolling?"

    That's what I said.

    Poorly worded? Subjective, and I never claimed it was professional quality, but I did say exactly what it did do...my point was clear as a bell, no one has misunderstood it...the underlying assumptions I believe to be flawed were explicit and clear...the logical extension of those underlying assumptions was clearly presented, supporting my reasoning. Nobody has to agree with me, but the argument was clearly made. It may not be worded as you would have written it, but its not poor by Internet post standards.

    Logical fallacies? I'd be interested in hearing them. Seriously, no sarcasm. I'm always willing to hear alternate views. I've been willing to listen to Goodlun's, and I've responded to them...I don't agree with him, and I don't believe he's extended his beliefs beyond the moment, but I respect that he seems to sincerely believe what he's saying. That's why I'm still talking to him. Like I said before, if he was just trolling and being argumentative I would have moved on. He's not, so we're talking.

    So, yes, I expected you to respect an honest effort at debate. I was mistaken.

    "Tell you what, I'll leave the psychobabble to you, you leave the semantic word games to me?"

    Psychobabble. Haven't done any. No Internet psychoanalysis of Goodlun, no patronizing attempts to claim ulterior motivations. Nothing. Haven't even tried to defend my profession despite all the negative comments, with the single exception of bringing up my years as a front line crisis intervention clinician and how it relates to the Naval Yard shooter...we're having a discussion on that thread as well and it came up...brought it to mind for this thread.

    Semantic word games. Not really. I even stopped taking the bait on the whole IT sidetrack and returned to the core point. It's explicitly stated several times in the thread. No games.

    You don't like to be challenged, so flame away. I would be interested in hearing the logical fallacies though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Well, any particular benefit someone is making for society is very unlikely to benefit every single member, but America has 13 million people spending $60 billion a year on drugs. Seems macro enough.
    Oh yeah, no question that drug economy is pervasive.
  10. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 7:16pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Aww I found the crux of your problem here you think social value == social benefit

    People are self destructive we often value things of no benefit.
    Okay, let's see...

    "So yes I would say the guy who keeps my fuel prices stable and available has done a hell of a LOT MORE FOR SOCIETY easily in the 10x range than one freaking nurse. "

    "Are you telling me the stay at home mommy is CONTRIBUTING MORE TO SOCIETY than the one that works and takes care of their kids you know like most families in America?"

    "A Dr Volunteering his time is doing something GOOD FOR SOCIETY. He isn't making money doing so. However that time has a value = the market rate for his service. That market rate is a good indication of how much GOOD HE IS DOING FOR SOCIETY."

    "How cute you think hard work has anything to do with the value someone ADDS TO SOCIETY."

    "Most people are not ENRICHING SOCIETY in their free time."

    "That being said you are greatly trying to OVER value your CONTRIBUTION as your trying to put it on par or above that of those that CONTRIBUTE MORE TO SOCIETY ie in this case IT Professionals. You know how I know they are more valuable than you we as a society give them more access to resources than you."

    "If we are starting to talk about 80k> positions we are really starting to see some very important IT people and if we are talking about the 175k> positions then yes we certainly are talking about people whom do a **** load MORE FOR SOCIETY and are far more important to it than you. I am sorry if you shitty little ego can't take that"

    "hell your job is a great example you make more money than a lot of people far more USEFUL than you. Your IT example is really poor cause you know society now runs on information. The fact that you don't see the value in it or the fact that what they do actually provides MORE VALUE TO SOCIETY as a whole is pretty sad."

    "I personally make less money by my decision to work less hours so I can spend more time with my family. That BENEFITS me and my family, not SOCIETY as a whole. You doing a job that makes you feel good instead of something more PRODUCTIVE ENRICHES your life not SOCIETY as a whole."



    Huh, guess we are talking about benefit to society.

    Try again.
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