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  1. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 2:55pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do you know? This did go through...here I thought it had timed out while I was writing a too long response...guess it was just another one stuck behind the filter...
  2. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 4:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I love the use of civil servants as an example. You cannot get a clearer example of how much value a society puts on a person then that. Obviously we as a society only pay lip servicce to the value of first responders, teachers, and the police. At the end of the day we are only willing to share a small part of our very own resources for their services. In fact we get upset and blame them for our high tax rates.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 4:30pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One more thing lets address IT.
    IT wages run from a few bucks over minum wage to low 6 figures. Equally the value they provide to society is equally as varied.

    Folks if you want to make good money you have to do 1 of 2 things.

    Do something other people will not do.

    Do something other people can not do.

    As you can see these 2 things both provide more to society than doing something everyone is willing to do and something that everyone is capable of doing.

    So the IT guy that is reading you a script isn't particularly valuable and guess what he doesn't make much.

    The guy that is doing some serious IT engineering so that a companies information data is safe, secure, and accessible on the other hand...

    Its cool though you can keep trying to pick random high earners and poop on them not understanding that their is a reason a miserly business person is willing to pay them. Or accept that what they do has real world value.

    I will admit is it a perfect model? No of course not. Does it work in the 80/20 sense most likely.
  4. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 7:02pm


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    Here comes Wall O' Text, sorry...

    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    One more thing lets address IT.
    IT wages run from a few bucks over minum wage to low 6 figures. Equally the value they provide to society is equally as varied.

    Folks if you want to make good money you have to do 1 of 2 things.

    Do something other people will not do.

    Do something other people can not do.

    As you can see these 2 things both provide more to society than doing something everyone is willing to do and something that everyone is capable of doing.

    So the IT guy that is reading you a script isn't particularly valuable and guess what he doesn't make much.

    The guy that is doing some serious IT engineering so that a companies information data is safe, secure, and accessible on the other hand...

    Its cool though you can keep trying to pick random high earners and poop on them not understanding that their is a reason a miserly business person is willing to pay them. Or accept that what they do has real world value.

    I will admit is it a perfect model? No of course not. Does it work in the 80/20 sense most likely.

    Never said IT pros don't have value, but it was an example for a reason, based on my own personal anecdotes (which I know is a shitty way to make an argument, but bear with me).

    Number of personal acquaintances who are IT professionals: 5

    Number of these personal acquaintances who match or exceed my annual earnings : 5

    Number of these personal acquaintances who actually attended college to be an IT professional : 0 (one worked in insurance, one a restaurant manager, one a teacher, etc.)

    Number of these personal acquaintances who went into IT in order to benefit society or their fellow man : 0

    Number of personal acquaintances who went into IT because of their impression that it was an easy way to make better money than what they were doing before : 5

    So, from my personal sample of 5, this is a job you can start after attending a few seminars to get some certificates, and paid better than what they actually went to college to study. These are all bright, capable guys, but they ALL made this successful transition in a pretty limited time. 5 for 5.

    This ain't brain surgery.

    So, I've actually got no problem with that career path, but don't get huffy about the exalted skill set of the IT pro...I had literally YEARS of training and supervised practice to do what I do (psychologist with disabled children in the public sector), I've got over 20 years of service to the least among us, and I am the lowest earner of this personal cohort I've pulled together from my experiences.

    Again, I've generally got no problem with what others make, and I don't complain about my compensation...until some raging asshole flat out says that any one of thousands of pricks working for the likes of Lehman Brothers, playing a personal role in toasting the retirement options of millions so they can afford to pay more for a car than I paid for my house, is worth 20+ of me as a member of society and general human being.

    **** You.

    (Not directed at Goodlun, but the thread commentary trend)

    (I'm sure folks could argue with some of the generalizations, but honestly, why bother? I can spend a little more time coming up with better examples to make the same point, which will stand up under crossfire. If you can't refute the point don't waste time arguing about some minor detail or hyperbolic language)
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 7:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    psychologist with disabled children in the public sectoror
    So basically you provide very little benifit to society as a whole. Sure you probally greatly enrich a small number of lives but society wouldn't cease to function without you or anyone doing your job. You are a small luxury. Your IT friends on the other hands are needed for modern buisness and a society will fail without commerce.
  6. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 7:43pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    So basically you provide very little benifit to society as a whole. Sure you probally greatly enrich a small number of lives but society wouldn't cease to function without you or anyone doing your job. You are a small luxury. Your IT friends on the other hands are needed for modern buisness and a society will fail without commerce.

    Soooo, you're counterpoint is comparing my contribution as an individual to that of the entire IT industry? Unless you're saying that society falls to ruin without the contribution of the average individual IT worker?

    Well played, sir.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 8:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Soooo, you're counterpoint is comparing my contribution as an individual to that of the entire IT industry? Unless you're saying that society falls to ruin without the contribution of the average individual IT worker?

    Well played, sir.
    Lol at average IT worker statement. That is like me saying average health care professional. You want to have a serious conversation we have to narrow down what we are talking about. The same type of gap you see between a medical assitant and a truma surgon you also see in IT. So its cute to make antidota comparisons of people that run in your social circle whom are likely to be of roughly equivalant social economic value. Even though your a public sector guy I doubt your wages are less than say that of a geek squad guy or even your typical tier 1 help desk.

    That being said if everyone that does exactly what you do just stopped showing up would I notice?
  8. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 9:37pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Lol at average IT worker statement. That is like me saying average health care professional. You want to have a serious conversation we have to narrow down what we are talking about. The same type of gap you see between a medical assitant and a truma surgon you also see in IT. So its cute to make antidota comparisons of people that run in your social circle whom are likely to be of roughly equivalant social economic value. Even though your a public sector guy I doubt your wages are less than say that of a geek squad guy or even your typical tier 1 help desk.

    That being said if everyone that does exactly what you do just stopped showing up would I notice?

    I don't know your personal situation, I don't know if trained professionals supporting disabled individuals directly impacts your life. Is that your sole criteria of value? What's in it for me? You would definitely see the difference over time, if that matters to you.

    Read history. Truly caring for the disabled is a relatively recent development, in the grand scheme of things...lots of examples of societies where it wasn't happening. More power to you if that's the world you want to live in.

    Your continued attempts to demean my profession are cute. The comparisons you draw are geek squad and a help desk drone? Troll on...

    As for serious conversation, the world will not end regardless of any one individual being present or no...your contention that every individual IT pro is vital to our continued existence is ridiculous...you've got one more chance (if you want it) to actually seriously respond, or I'll assume you're just fucking around and move on. Tell u what, just substitute anything else u want for IT and respond to the actual point.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 10:59pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What the ****? Is this a troll account for Rabbit? It's like his introduction to the website.

    W.Rabbit: Hey guys I'm really fucking smart here are my accolades.
    Bullshido: Yeah, according to you.
    W.Rabbit:
    Keslet?

    Don't be that poster.
  10. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 11:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Read history. Truly caring for the disabled is a relatively recent development, in the grand scheme of things...lots of examples of societies where it wasn't happening. More power to you if that's the world you want to live in.
    Yes it is real recent, I didn't say there is no value in it either. Obviously you make a difference in SOME peoples lives and to them what you do has value and by extension a value to society. That being said you are greatly trying to OVER value your contribution as your trying to put it on par or above that of those that contribute more to society ie in this case IT Professionals. You know how I know they are more valuable than you we as a society give them more access to resources than you.
    You know how I know we value the disable in this society vs that of those in the past we use are resource to better them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Your continued attempts to demean my profession are cute.
    The fact that you think your profession matters more than it does is what is cute. As already stated Civilization lasted a long time without the state caring for the disabled. Guess what its something we indulge in as a luxury. Guess what funding gets cut when things get tight well you should already know.

    So get over your inflated sense of worth to society.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    The comparisons you draw are geek squad and a help desk drone? Troll on...
    For someone with so much schooling you certainly have a hard time following along. I assumed that you made more then them did I not? Thus I was stating you had more value to society than them. They where used to help you get this concept IT professional is a dumb fucking thing to say. Its a very broad field one that employees people all over the economic rainbow. Your the one that seems to have a hard time comprehending the differences.

    Lets be clear your talking about IT Professionals that make MORE than you that you don't feel contribute more to society than you do. Since I don't know exactly how much you make its a hard thing to nail down. If you make 60k> we are starting to talk about important positions. If we are starting to talk about 80k> positions we are really starting to see some very important IT people and if we are talking about the 175k> positions then yes we certainly are talking about people whom do a **** load more for society and are far more important to it than you. I am sorry if you shitty little ego can't take that. But with ou them we no longer have a society as we have become dependent on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    As for serious conversation, the world will not end regardless of any one individual being present or no...your contention that every individual IT pro is vital to our continued existence is ridiculous...you've got one more chance (if you want it) to actually seriously respond, or I'll assume you're just fucking around and move on.
    This has never been about ONE INDIVIDUAL. No the world isn't going to end if one IT job is lost. The world will end (as we know it) if lets say every Back haul or RAN engineer said hey **** it and nobody was able to step up an fill their shoes. There you have it an IT position that probably makes more than you do that is guess what far more important to society than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Tell u what, just substitute anything else u want for IT and respond to the actual point.
    Tell you what you actually make a point, pick something that is a good example hell your job is a great example you make more money than a lot of people far more useful than you. Your IT example is really poor cause you know society now runs on information. The fact that you don't see the value in it or the fact that what they do actually provides more value to society as a whole is pretty sad.

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