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  1. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 9:37pm


     Style: Wrestle, Kickbox, Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Lol at average IT worker statement. That is like me saying average health care professional. You want to have a serious conversation we have to narrow down what we are talking about. The same type of gap you see between a medical assitant and a truma surgon you also see in IT. So its cute to make antidota comparisons of people that run in your social circle whom are likely to be of roughly equivalant social economic value. Even though your a public sector guy I doubt your wages are less than say that of a geek squad guy or even your typical tier 1 help desk.

    That being said if everyone that does exactly what you do just stopped showing up would I notice?

    I don't know your personal situation, I don't know if trained professionals supporting disabled individuals directly impacts your life. Is that your sole criteria of value? What's in it for me? You would definitely see the difference over time, if that matters to you.

    Read history. Truly caring for the disabled is a relatively recent development, in the grand scheme of things...lots of examples of societies where it wasn't happening. More power to you if that's the world you want to live in.

    Your continued attempts to demean my profession are cute. The comparisons you draw are geek squad and a help desk drone? Troll on...

    As for serious conversation, the world will not end regardless of any one individual being present or no...your contention that every individual IT pro is vital to our continued existence is ridiculous...you've got one more chance (if you want it) to actually seriously respond, or I'll assume you're just fucking around and move on. Tell u what, just substitute anything else u want for IT and respond to the actual point.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 10:59pm

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    What the ****? Is this a troll account for Rabbit? It's like his introduction to the website.

    W.Rabbit: Hey guys I'm really fucking smart here are my accolades.
    Bullshido: Yeah, according to you.
    W.Rabbit:
    Keslet?

    Don't be that poster.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2013 11:10pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Read history. Truly caring for the disabled is a relatively recent development, in the grand scheme of things...lots of examples of societies where it wasn't happening. More power to you if that's the world you want to live in.
    Yes it is real recent, I didn't say there is no value in it either. Obviously you make a difference in SOME peoples lives and to them what you do has value and by extension a value to society. That being said you are greatly trying to OVER value your contribution as your trying to put it on par or above that of those that contribute more to society ie in this case IT Professionals. You know how I know they are more valuable than you we as a society give them more access to resources than you.
    You know how I know we value the disable in this society vs that of those in the past we use are resource to better them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Your continued attempts to demean my profession are cute.
    The fact that you think your profession matters more than it does is what is cute. As already stated Civilization lasted a long time without the state caring for the disabled. Guess what its something we indulge in as a luxury. Guess what funding gets cut when things get tight well you should already know.

    So get over your inflated sense of worth to society.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    The comparisons you draw are geek squad and a help desk drone? Troll on...
    For someone with so much schooling you certainly have a hard time following along. I assumed that you made more then them did I not? Thus I was stating you had more value to society than them. They where used to help you get this concept IT professional is a dumb fucking thing to say. Its a very broad field one that employees people all over the economic rainbow. Your the one that seems to have a hard time comprehending the differences.

    Lets be clear your talking about IT Professionals that make MORE than you that you don't feel contribute more to society than you do. Since I don't know exactly how much you make its a hard thing to nail down. If you make 60k> we are starting to talk about important positions. If we are starting to talk about 80k> positions we are really starting to see some very important IT people and if we are talking about the 175k> positions then yes we certainly are talking about people whom do a **** load more for society and are far more important to it than you. I am sorry if you shitty little ego can't take that. But with ou them we no longer have a society as we have become dependent on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    As for serious conversation, the world will not end regardless of any one individual being present or no...your contention that every individual IT pro is vital to our continued existence is ridiculous...you've got one more chance (if you want it) to actually seriously respond, or I'll assume you're just fucking around and move on.
    This has never been about ONE INDIVIDUAL. No the world isn't going to end if one IT job is lost. The world will end (as we know it) if lets say every Back haul or RAN engineer said hey **** it and nobody was able to step up an fill their shoes. There you have it an IT position that probably makes more than you do that is guess what far more important to society than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Tell u what, just substitute anything else u want for IT and respond to the actual point.
    Tell you what you actually make a point, pick something that is a good example hell your job is a great example you make more money than a lot of people far more useful than you. Your IT example is really poor cause you know society now runs on information. The fact that you don't see the value in it or the fact that what they do actually provides more value to society as a whole is pretty sad.
  4. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 6:08am


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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    What the ****? Is this a troll account for Rabbit? It's like his introduction to the website.

    W.Rabbit: Hey guys I'm really fucking smart here are my accolades.
    Bullshido: Yeah, according to you.
    W.Rabbit:
    Keslet?

    Don't be that poster.

    Well, I don't want to be "That Guy"...and honestly this has been a total sidetrack. My original post was pretty long, and had one sentence about IT. Has nothing to do with my main point, which I've said a couple of times. Sorry if it came across as raging, I'm not pissed, just not sure if I'm being trolled or not...
  5. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 8:14am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @Goodlun - Dude, I didn't even read it past the first couple sentences. I get it, you work in IT, IT controls the Spice and thus controls the Universe. My posts really had nothing to do with IT...I listed two assumptions off the top of my head that struck me as faulty...any thoughts on those?

    Now, normally I would keep talking, but I'm really crushed this morning...somehow my bank accounts got all frozen up, my car was repossessed at dawn (which is really weird because its paid off), and WTF is "Anonymous"?
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 9:36am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    @Goodlun - Dude, I didn't even read it past the first couple sentences.
    Of course not, your ego won't allow it. Cause your better than them drones that make more than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    I get it, you work in IT
    Nope my post are ego free, its never been about me defending my sense of self worth. I have in the past worked in IT but its been almost a decade and very rarely an IT contract comes across my desk that is worth my time but no I don't work in IT.
    There is a lot of cross over because I do contract electrical engineering. Most of my design work is with Machine tool Automation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    My posts really had nothing to do with IT...I listed two assumptions off the top of my head that struck me as faulty...any thoughts on those?
    I already addressed civil servants of all kinds and I don't want to get dragged into a finical services debate with someone that doesn't have a good understanding of economics given your post about finical services all you have are meme worthy knowledge.
    Some things for you consideration though.
    It is easy to blame traders but its just an easy scapegoat. What caused the rescission was a trillion dollar bubble bursting. Blaming the traders for this is like blaming stuffed animal manufacturers for the beanie baby bubble.

    People who had no buisness investing is typically what causes bubbles they see a sophisticated invester doing something that looks easy and go oh hey I can do that to. Yet they miss the finer points on it and screw up the whole system. It happens every fucking time. I love people blaming wall street or who ever when you get a bunch of day traders that go in there and **** the values up. Perfect example the tech sector boom sophicated investors where making good money off of good tech companies **** hits the news that tech stocks grow quickly so every asshole thinks hey I can buy any tech stock inflating the value of stocks. Than at some point reality sets in and crushes everything.
    Same thing happened in the housing market. People are like well **** I can buy houses its a safe speculation that these will keep going up in value.

    So its cool we can blame the people who facilitated the trading and made a lot of people rich including themselves. Cause having a thriving market is bad for society and all. I mean who want liquidity in their markets? I know when I buy stuff I want to be stuck with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    WTF is "Anonymous"?
    From what I gather an unorganized group of idiots who try and use low level hacking to achieve social activism.

    More accurately they are a very minor nuisance to an IT department of any organisation considered to be part of the elite or is deemed socially irresponsible. They have yet to really accomplish much other than to embarrass some people.
  7. Keslet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 10:16am


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    You know, I may have thrown out the olive branch a little early on this one.

    Goodlun, have u read my profile? The first part of my career was spent doing crisis mental health work...emergency rooms, county jails, community crisis response (I.e., police and/or fire fatalities, mass casualty events, etc.)...I did this for years...if someone had caught the DC shooter as he was decompensating (becoming more symptomatic), they would have brought him to someone like me, and that person would have evaluated and admitted him (Voluntarily or no) to a secure facility until he was stabilized. That person would even physically restrain him (unarmed) to protect the community from his actions. I know these things because I have done exactly that many times in the past.

    On the DC thread this would appear to have been the preferred outcome.

    In my area that position requires a college degree in a related discipline and a state license, and pays around 30k/yr or so. I made considerably less as this was a few years back for me. I knew that I would never be rich working in the fields I have focused on, not because they don't matter but because the poor and disabled don't carry a whole lot of lobbying power in their pocket. So be it. I wouldn't have spent my entire adult life doing this kind of work if I wasn't 1) good at it, and 2) believing I was making a difference.

    My shitty ego is doing fine on that account, and I don't need a poster on a MA board to validate it.

    One last try champ. A plastic surgeon who does breast implants and face lifts as his core work is likely to have a much higher income than an ER Dr. The first Dr. May very well do some things of real value, but mostly he is catering to vanity. The second Dr. May very well do some trivial things, but he also saves lives. So why doesn't the 2nd doctor make more in the vast majority of cases? I love big tits as much as the next guy, but its not a necessary service.

    Money =/= Human Value. Never has, never will.

    As a metric for value to society/humanity, annual income Does Not Work.
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 10:42am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Goodlun, have u read my profile?
    Nope I am not interested in you, just your arguments which have been far from compelling. They have been rambling virtual at how under valued you are. Then anything coherent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    In my area that position requires a college degree in a related discipline and a state license
    Irrelevant. It could require you to walk on water, none of this has to do with the value you add to society or more aptly the value society see in what you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    , and pays around 30k/yr or so.
    Here we have it a job paid for directly by society. Guess what society has spoken they deemed the position is only worth that amount of our resources. Maybe after a few more mass shootings if you can get people over the whole gun thing you might be able to get society to see more value in it. But for now unfortunately the truth is we simply don't see much value in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    I wouldn't have spent my entire adult life doing this kind of work if I wasn't 1) good at it, and 2) believing I was making a difference.
    So the position had value to you. Kudos its good to do something rewarding I personally make less money by my decision to work less hours so I can spend more time with my family. That benefits me and my family, not society as a whole. You doing a job that makes you feel good instead of something more productive enriches your life not society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    One last try champ. A plastic surgeon who does breast implants and face lifts as his core work is likely to have a much higher income than an ER Dr. The first Dr. May very well do some things of real value, but mostly he is catering to vanity.
    There you go again making value judgments for society based on your ethos. Obviously we as a society enjoy large breast it increases our standard of living. So while you call it vain and it is society has judged it to be that important. So I hate to say it but it appears the guy doing titty jobs is more important to society than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    Money =/= Human Value. Never has, never will.
    Oh please don't act like we don't already put monetary values on life. Also don't act like we put an equal value on all life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keslet View Post
    As a metric for value to society/humanity, annual income Does Not Work.
    Its not a perfect model. I also didn't exactly say income I said the ability to generate income. Its a small but distinct difference. I also never said it is the sole determining factor just a good base. Face it income is the primary means that people out in society get to deterring what share of society they get access to.
    The free market place does a fairly good job of assigning everything a value. In this case we are talking about the fruits of our labors. What are we to society beyond our labors? Not much in the grand scheme of things. So yes I know its depressing to quantify the value of a human being because blah blah blah bullshit about the scanty of life and the what not but we do it anyways. We do it to ourselves we spend more or less 1/2 of our waking hours working meaning tracing our very life for money.
  9. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 11:36am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Assigning value as expressed in dollar values is heavily weighted towards those in society who already control the money though, whether or not the money they possess has anything to do with the work they've done. When you consider that true wealth is generally hereditary and the disproportionately huge percent of money (and decision making power) held by a small powerful elite, dollar value doesn't seem like such a concrete metric of the will of "society".
  10. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2013 12:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Assigning value as expressed in dollar values is heavily weighted towards those in society who already control the money though
    This is certainly true. However isn't it also true that we as a society tend to value these people more? Do we not put the rich and powerful up on a pedestal? Hasn't this more or less been human nature for as far back as we can look?

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    , whether or not the money they possess has anything to do with the work they've done. When you consider that true wealth is generally hereditary
    Lets me clarify I am interested in money earned not inherited nor wealth accumulated.
    In fact its not about wealth at all. Being miserly doesn't make you a better citizen. The labors you put forth though do. Now though labors may be investing/trading/ and the what not. Same thing I wouldn't say a lottery winner is of particular value to society yet they would of course be wealthy for at least a short period of time. Same way I am not going to diminish a Dr. that does Drs without boarders. That Dr. is not earning a lot of money but we do have a pretty good idea of what that time is actually worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    and the disproportionately huge percent of money (and decision making power) held by a small powerful elite, dollar value doesn't seem like such a concrete metric of the will of "society".
    This also is certainly true. Yet we let them rule. At the end of the day we as a society allow the inequalities. There are a number of things we can try from civil disobedience to armed revolt. That 1% rules because we allow them to. Cause in the end we just are not that uncomfortable and it would be too inconvenient to upset the status quo.

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