Remember, he is trolling. Owlmatt has currently replaced Rabbit in doofa's heart.
Originally Posted by Devil
I can see selective reading will get me nowhere.
Originally Posted by It is Fake
I'm intrigued by some of the statements I'm reading here. Are we really saying that an individuals income is a reasonable metric for their worth to society and, by extension, as a human being?
For that to be true we would have to assume that a) earnings are balanced out across different types of work and fields (as I assume nobody would seriously make the argument that the average IT worker is a superior human being in comparison to the average firefighter, based solely on average annual income...other than possibly a bunch of IT workers), and b) salaries/ raises/ promotions/ bonuses are all allocated solely on objective merit...a true functioning meritocracy!
I seem to recall some press following our most recent economic collapse...the financial "professionals" who had started the recessionary ball rolling were still working at their firms to try to "unwind" the tangled mess of arcane financial instruments that had been constructed to fleece just a bit more from their customers. They were outraged (outraged I say!) that they might not get their 500k-1mil+ BONUSES, because by god they had earned it! By bankrupting their respective firms in some cases, and tanking their customers portfolios. So they got the bonuses. Merit!
I'm open-minded, though, so I'm going to check this out...living close to one of the larger cities in the country I've noticed certain neighborhoods that are made up almost entirely of homes that start north of half a million bucks and go up sharply from there...in the Midwest that's a lot, though I know in some other parts of the country this much money won't get u very far in housing. Anyways, while there are probably a portion of residents in these neighborhoods who are truly living beyond their means, most of these houses don't end up in bank-owned foreclosures, and would require size able incomes to purchase and maintain. There are literally thousands of these homes, and I've often wondered "Who ARE all these millionaires? What do they all do?"
Well, maybe now I know...they are the best, brightest, and most innovative citizens in the metro area, representing a crosse-section of the most productive workers from all walks of life, who have risen to these gated enclaves by being the cream of humanity!
I'm going to go there tomorrow...I can't wait to meet them!
What do you know? This did go through...here I thought it had timed out while I was writing a too long response...guess it was just another one stuck behind the filter...
I love the use of civil servants as an example. You cannot get a clearer example of how much value a society puts on a person then that. Obviously we as a society only pay lip servicce to the value of first responders, teachers, and the police. At the end of the day we are only willing to share a small part of our very own resources for their services. In fact we get upset and blame them for our high tax rates.
One more thing lets address IT.
IT wages run from a few bucks over minum wage to low 6 figures. Equally the value they provide to society is equally as varied.
Folks if you want to make good money you have to do 1 of 2 things.
Do something other people will not do.
Do something other people can not do.
As you can see these 2 things both provide more to society than doing something everyone is willing to do and something that everyone is capable of doing.
So the IT guy that is reading you a script isn't particularly valuable and guess what he doesn't make much.
The guy that is doing some serious IT engineering so that a companies information data is safe, secure, and accessible on the other hand...
Its cool though you can keep trying to pick random high earners and poop on them not understanding that their is a reason a miserly business person is willing to pay them. Or accept that what they do has real world value.
I will admit is it a perfect model? No of course not. Does it work in the 80/20 sense most likely.
Here comes Wall O' Text, sorry...
Originally Posted by goodlun
Never said IT pros don't have value, but it was an example for a reason, based on my own personal anecdotes (which I know is a shitty way to make an argument, but bear with me).
Number of personal acquaintances who are IT professionals: 5
Number of these personal acquaintances who match or exceed my annual earnings : 5
Number of these personal acquaintances who actually attended college to be an IT professional : 0 (one worked in insurance, one a restaurant manager, one a teacher, etc.)
Number of these personal acquaintances who went into IT in order to benefit society or their fellow man : 0
Number of personal acquaintances who went into IT because of their impression that it was an easy way to make better money than what they were doing before : 5
So, from my personal sample of 5, this is a job you can start after attending a few seminars to get some certificates, and paid better than what they actually went to college to study. These are all bright, capable guys, but they ALL made this successful transition in a pretty limited time. 5 for 5.
This ain't brain surgery.
So, I've actually got no problem with that career path, but don't get huffy about the exalted skill set of the IT pro...I had literally YEARS of training and supervised practice to do what I do (psychologist with disabled children in the public sector), I've got over 20 years of service to the least among us, and I am the lowest earner of this personal cohort I've pulled together from my experiences.
Again, I've generally got no problem with what others make, and I don't complain about my compensation...until some raging asshole flat out says that any one of thousands of pricks working for the likes of Lehman Brothers, playing a personal role in toasting the retirement options of millions so they can afford to pay more for a car than I paid for my house, is worth 20+ of me as a member of society and general human being.
(Not directed at Goodlun, but the thread commentary trend)
(I'm sure folks could argue with some of the generalizations, but honestly, why bother? I can spend a little more time coming up with better examples to make the same point, which will stand up under crossfire. If you can't refute the point don't waste time arguing about some minor detail or hyperbolic language)
So basically you provide very little benifit to society as a whole. Sure you probally greatly enrich a small number of lives but society wouldn't cease to function without you or anyone doing your job. You are a small luxury. Your IT friends on the other hands are needed for modern buisness and a society will fail without commerce.
Originally Posted by Keslet
Originally Posted by goodlun
Soooo, you're counterpoint is comparing my contribution as an individual to that of the entire IT industry? Unless you're saying that society falls to ruin without the contribution of the average individual IT worker?
Well played, sir.
Lol at average IT worker statement. That is like me saying average health care professional. You want to have a serious conversation we have to narrow down what we are talking about. The same type of gap you see between a medical assitant and a truma surgon you also see in IT. So its cute to make antidota comparisons of people that run in your social circle whom are likely to be of roughly equivalant social economic value. Even though your a public sector guy I doubt your wages are less than say that of a geek squad guy or even your typical tier 1 help desk.
Originally Posted by Keslet
That being said if everyone that does exactly what you do just stopped showing up would I notice?