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  1. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2013 1:17pm

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     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    AFAIK you have lineage, it's just not being currently recognized. do you not say that?
    I usually just say that we don't do the whole lineage thing. If they continue the conversation, I tell them who I've trained with and that we've since parted ways. I tell everyone that we're not IBJJF affiliated.

    just out of curiosity, if you are teaching gi grappling, what belt do you wear? how are you dealing with rank that students earn from you?
    I wear my black belt. I promote students based on the level they perform at. There are no financial or political considerations at all in evaluations. I get guys that come to me thinking that I'm going to strip them of their rank or otherwise disrespect them. They're so used to that. I respect the people that come through my door, IBJJF or otherwise. It works.

    i'm not saying that you are wrong in what you are doing, but the "party line" on bullshido has been that a situation like what you are describing (instructor with belts that are not recognized, teaching outside of the affiliations) would be considered a red flag, and would be things that a prospective student would be wise to worry about.
    In the area, its not a secret. I might sit down for dinner with one guy and hear about all the trouble I've caused. I might sit down with another guy and hear about how my students subbed him and I took out his instructor. Different people have differing opinions of myself and my program and I'm ok with this.

    maybe it's time to change the "party line", i'm not sure, that's why i brought it up, because this is a clear-cut exception to the rule (we have a known coach with verified skills who is throwing up undeserved red flags.)
    If I don't know a man, I don't attack his character or his livelihood. I've seen a few cases where people were savaged on the internet, only to be completely innocent of wrongdoing.

    i understand that times are changing in terms of what a belt or affiliation means in the BJJ world, but, remember that in the past claims by instructors that "the proof is on the mat" and "i don't need affiliation/belts/etc to know how to fight" have been met with ridicule on here for a long time.
    Lineage wars are for Chunners, lol.
  2. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2013 3:22pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Villain View Post
    Its not a monopoly issue. The consumers aren't the target. The instructors are being forced to buy things that they already own. Buying an association leeches 2k a year off your income, forces you to build the brand of your direct competitor, forces you to split your earnings with outside instructors and ties your success to outside parties. Gracie Barra and Team Lloyd Irvin are prime examples of pretty severe collapses due to association improprieties.
    Not that you care but in my discussion the instructors are the consumers. They are purchasing their recognition from and association with the IBJJF, and they are the ones suffering losses while the IBJJF takes in monopoly profits. This results in fewer recognized black belt instructors, and that is a deadweight loss to society. It's an inefficiency, and is unethical, but the money remains in the global economy. It's not a perfect comparison though because people can leave and obtain rank and association from other people. Because of this I think pursuing an anti-trust line of thought would be in vain. Anyone else is free to start a BJJ organization and set up their own tournies and grading and hire their own instructors. Barriers to entry are practically non-existent for qualified instructors.

    I think you're better off going through a better-business-bureau complaint. Not sure how that works though. There isn't a whole lot of legal recourse in this situation to be honest.

    More than anything I'm enjoying watching my kickass post ratings go up and down like a roller coaster :)
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/04/2013 3:29pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    but the "party line" on bullshido has been that a situation like what you are describing (instructor with belts that are not recognized, teaching outside of the affiliations) would be considered a red flag, and would be things that a prospective student would be wise to worry about.

    maybe it's time to change the "party line", i'm not sure, that's why i brought it up, because this is a clear-cut exception to the rule (we have a known coach with verified skills who is throwing up undeserved red flags.)
    PArty line changed long ago, you missed the threads. It's part of the reason, if you were in the threads, certain veteran posters disappeared. Yes, that's contrary to the often used "but CY fucked this place up."

    i understand that times are changing in terms of what a belt or affiliation means in the BJJ world, but, remember that in the past claims by instructors that "the proof is on the mat" and "i don't need affiliation/belts/etc to know how to fight" have been met with ridicule on here for a long time.
    Depends completely on the context. Nope, I can get you threads where a non-ranked person has been considered legit through videos, competition and other means taken as a whole.
  4. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2013 3:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Elipson, this is where the story gets weird. I didn't get screwed in this debacle. Once I refused to pay, they threatened to revoke the OTHER guy's belt. They used the belt to fire him from his teaching position and recall him back to the dojo. What purpose that served, I don't know.
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2013 4:09pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    PArty line changed long ago, you missed the threads. It's part of the reason, if you were in the threads, certain veteran posters disappeared. Yes, that's contrary to the often used "but CY fucked this place up."
    i still see that party line used here all the time. the recent thread about the guy claiming a BJJ BB but refusing to say who gave it to him from the UK comes to mind. i know there wasn't universal agreement in that thread, but i still think that the "party line" for lack of a better term was used.

    Depends completely on the context. Nope, I can get you threads where a non-ranked person has been considered legit through videos, competition and other means taken as a whole.
    i know that skilled grapplers without BJJ belts have been getting the thumbs-up from bullshido since the beginning (omega to name only one) but you should be able to see that this sort of BS with the IBJJF is going to open the floodgates to JJJ and other crapplers making all sorts of claims, and it will be so much harder to spot frauds. the high level grapplers bullshido has endorsed (for lack of a better term) all are trained in non-BJJ grappling, and this is a case of a BJJ BB who is teaching BJJ, but whose rank is not recognized for what seems to be a bunch of political and financial bullshit. it's a bit different than anything we have dealt with before.

    my point is that this news is very bad for bullshido and its stated message. perhaps this was a long time coming and you saw it a mile away, but it really does suck, and is a huge shame. it makes it a lot harder to advise newbies looking for a gym, and a lot harder to evaluate claims made by instructors.

    we can say that the proof is in the tournament results, but how is a newbie supposed to know the difference between a gold medal at NAGA vs an IBBJF gold medal vs a gold medal from some TKD circle-jerk "grappling" tournament with an official sounding name?

    we can say that the proof is on the mat, but a newbie has very little chance of knowing enough to judge, as anyone with halfway decent grappling can make a newbie feel helpless.

    for every legit instructor like the villain, who was fucked by the IBBJF, there will be 10 bullshit artists who will make the same claim. we have seen them over and over, and now it will be that much harder to call them on their bullshit, because they can point to this situation and say "see! just like me!"

    none of these issues are *new* but this development is bad news. maybe it was inevitable, but i was hoping that it wasn't. IMHO there is still a chance for the BJJ community to fix this, and I hope that they do.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2013 12:45am

    hall of famestaff
     

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there is an important difference between someone who when asked says "I won't tell you who awarded me my BJJ blackbelt" and someone else who says, it was given to me by [instructor] but then it got political and I went out on my own.

    The second person isn't hiding crucial information.

    "Why are you no longer recognized as a Black Belt?"

    "Because after [instructor] awarded me my black belt a year later they tripled the prices I would have to pay. I couldn't keep my business open, and had to leave association X. I still have the certificate and my promotion ceremony is on video, and lets talk about my high level competition record at NAGA which proves I know how to roll."
  7. The Villain is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2013 12:06pm

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     Style: BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that this situation is gonna be resolved relatively soon. A lot of higher level guys are speaking out against them and I've heard about legal actions being taken against some of the more egregious offenders.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2013 4:08pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i still see that party line used here all the time.
    You still see the line used, you said it was a bullshido party line. I am saying no it is not the party line and hasn't been for a couple of years. Just like once upon a time ALL MCDOJOS were bad. Then that changed and the same thing happened in this case. People still use both lines and are quickly corrected. If you are talking about the same thread, where it was recently used, most of those posters weren't from bullshido.

    If it is being argued or debated it is no longer a party line.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 9/05/2013 4:12pm at .
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