8/12/2013 11:42am, #11
But at what point are the fundamentals strong enough to transition to tactical stuff? how much time does one invest in "proper" mechanics before the returns start to diminish as compared to the high-speed/hard-core "tactical ted" stuff?
I am asking this as a thought experiment to all the amateur and pro shooters we have here. If you were to design a program for teh uber-noob who has no plans of ever becoming a tier one (or two or even three) operator, but may need to engage in pistol combat at some point (insert MacGuffin here), how much time/energy/money/effort do you sink into the base fundamentals before teaching actual fighting.
(Clever people may be spotting my "kata v. sparring" or "street v. sport" parallels here...)And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".
--Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
8/12/2013 11:46am, #12
But most everyone I know huts also, and we spend lots of time sighting in our rifles and plinking. So you have to be able to shoot or get laughed at.
And I think some just forget about the fundamentals over time. Worried more about the cool stuff.
8/12/2013 11:47am, #13
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
8/12/2013 11:50am, #14
8/12/2013 1:51pm, #15
And, of course, the person should be able to hit a target. Ideally, I would say 100% COM at 5 yards, which would be at worst about 66% at 8 yards, right? I don't think I would have accuracy at 8 yards as a prerequisite to "advanced," training, but it may be an interesting tool to gauge the performance of the individual and of the advanced training methods, should you bookend the training with range time (which you should, because how else are you going to tell if you're better?)
Here's where the line starts to get fuzzy for me. Comfort with the firearm, which may be very subjective. Production should be fluid and controlled. The person shouldn't get the shakes after firing a few rounds (I've taken several friends out for their first shot, this happens a lot). The person should be able to maintain positive control of the firearm, and have an innate awareness of where the gun is and where the barrel is pointing.
The objective stuff is probably a few hours (5 max I would say) of dedicated training. Accuracy will probably require one-on-one interaction with an instructor, but can be combined with range time. The subjective stuff will come with range time, and will depend on the individual.
Here's the key point - and I think this is where I put words in devil's mouth, you can't just pass the fundamentals and be done - you have to practice them regularly, so maybe a refresher course should be a prereq to advanced if you haven't done a fundamentals track in, say, the last 12 months (maybe it is, see first paragraph where I say I haven't taken any advanced courses, yet).
8/12/2013 2:04pm, #16
The variation in individual learning curves will be a factor as well.
I imagine that at various competencies you transition to the next element.
If you have an eight-inch group at fast fire at 8 yards, then you are probably good enough for drawing, moving, shoot-and-move, etc stuff. For most people, that's going to be two long training days minimum, probably more. But that feel's too early to be moving on to me,
because then you are back at square one when all the new elements make you a wild spaztard again.And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".
--Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
8/12/2013 2:17pm, #17
You want your rounds on target. Not flying through the air hitting whatever or whomever happens to be in their way. That point alone is a major fundamental.
Being able to shoot while doing acrobatics or contortions is cool but what's it worth if you can't hit the BG?
Heck if you want to you can shoot and miss without any expensive training at all! You can even strike a sweet pose. Throw on some high speed / low drag wrap arounds and a tactical vest. Have fun with it!
Last edited by Mr. Machette; 8/12/2013 2:31pm at .
8/12/2013 2:22pm, #18
IMO It's all a trade off of accuracy vs speed. If one guy can one hole it at 7 yards and another can dump two mags at "minute of COM" into two targets in 1/4 the time Ill take man number 2. If you are missing the target entirely at a blazing pace then you better slow it down.
Then there's range to the target. At bad breath range there's a little wiggle room in regards to the fundamentals..trying to hit a guy at 25 yards? Way different story.
8/12/2013 2:25pm, #19
8/12/2013 2:26pm, #20
In the civilian world, quality firearms training seems to be sparse (probably a whole other discussion, there). The upshot is that it's only in very small circles (some military, some LEO, very little civilian) that *continuing* training is required or even desirable, which is a marked difference from other "martial arts."
It may just be that guns are easy enough to use and get the desired result without any training.
Am I rambling yet? I think I'm rambling...