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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2013 1:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zargor View Post
    Ok guys, 3rd lesson went through, my cardio is improving, my muscles hurt like hell and I now know how it feels to get choked :D

    I'm starting to learn the ground work and trying to make work a couple of leg sweeps + seoi nage.

    My only concern is that in 3 lessons not once did we do any ukemi - I have not been thrown around yet asides once by my instructor in Randori and he was very gently yet I'm a bit afraid about not training ukemi.

    My 4 years of Aikido do serve me well and I'm quite confident on breakfalling (proper, not rolling away) but still I would like to practice in a Judo-compatible fashion.

    In your experience, is this normal? We did not do any throws that actually require any breakfalls (apart seoi nage) so maybe this is why no ukemi practice?
    I'm a bit curious as to your statement "We did not do any throws that actually require any breakfalls (apart seoi nage) so maybe this is why no ukemi practice?"

    What throws are you doing, other than Seoi Nage? Most throws in "require" ukemi of some sort or another.

    As far as not training ukemi goes, that's unusual, although in an "advanced" class it might be skipped or very short. There is a school of thought among some competitive judoka/coaches that practiing ukemi is "practicing to lose", so it is minimized for competitors at least.

    I'd ask the coach/sensei about it to find out from the source.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. Zargor is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2013 1:49pm

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     Style: Staying Alive

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I'm a bit curious as to your statement "We did not do any throws that actually require any breakfalls (apart seoi nage) so maybe this is why no ukemi practice?"

    What throws are you doing, other than Seoi Nage? Most throws in "require" ukemi of some sort or another.

    As far as not training ukemi goes, that's unusual, although in an "advanced" class it might be skipped or very short. There is a school of thought among some competitive judoka/coaches that practiing ukemi is "practicing to lose", so it is minimized for competitors at least.

    I'd ask the coach/sensei about it to find out from the source.
    Well the first lesson (randori oriented) we did:

    De ashi barai
    Osoto gari
    Tsurikomi ashi
    Ouchi gari
    Seoi nage

    the second lesson (more for beginners) we did newaza, Ouchi gari with transition to Seoi nage

    The third we did lots of newaza and then just a quick refresher on seoi nage

    Of these only seoi nage feel like requiring proper breakfall as the others doesn't feel challenging - or is it me?

    Your explanation makes much sense, the tuesday class is very competition oriented. The Thursday one I'm doing is more for beginners but after going only once it might be early to tell.

    I'll see tomorrow what we do and ask the coach in case still no ukemi, thanks!
  3. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2013 3:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zargor View Post
    Well the first lesson (randori oriented) we did:

    De ashi barai
    Osoto gari
    Tsurikomi ashi
    Ouchi gari
    Seoi nage

    the second lesson (more for beginners) we did newaza, Ouchi gari with transition to Seoi nage

    The third we did lots of newaza and then just a quick refresher on seoi nage

    Of these only seoi nage feel like requiring proper breakfall as the others doesn't feel challenging - or is it me?

    Your explanation makes much sense, the tuesday class is very competition oriented. The Thursday one I'm doing is more for beginners but after going only once it might be early to tell.

    I'll see tomorrow what we do and ask the coach in case still no ukemi, thanks!
    Ok, ne waza, obviously you don't need to warm up with ukemi, or train it, but doesn't hurt to do a little. No big deal.

    De ashi barai
    Osoto gari
    Tsurikomi ashi
    Ouchi gari
    Seoi nage

    All of these throws normally require one to take ukemi. Now, there are lots of ways to take ukemi, some are traditional to Judo, others are not.

    De Ashi barai, OK, it can be an easy fall, but still, normally, uke would take a yoko ukemi waza in any case.

    Osoto Gari, when done correctly, requires ukemi...

    Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, same,although it can be done as kind of a roll down which is pretty soft.

    Ouchi Gari normally some sort of koho/ushiro ukemi waza, sometimes yoko ukemi.

    Seoi Nage, well, I think you found out.

    Of course, all those throws can be modified and broken down to not require normal, hard ukemi, but in anything but a kids or beginners class that would be unusual.

    OK, report back, I'm curious. I'm glad you are enjoying your judo classes !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. Zargor is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 5:09am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After we talked about it guess what - we did ukemi! Yay! They are a bit different from the Aikido ones but I did ok, rolling no problem, back no problem, side no problem, got to work a bit on forwar roll when you land with both legs and tuck your head also I tried to do cartwheels but my body refused and just did rolling ukemi - need to work on this!

    In the advanced class they do not do ukemi and concentrate more on techniques + randori, the beginners class does them but not always, depends on how the instructor decides to structure the lesson.

    We were shown how to transition from knees holding the head into the ambar and break the locked hands, that was very cool as the leverage used (forearm/elbow) reminded me of how Aikido manipulates the joints, got it straight away and it's sweet, now just have to learn to actually use it :D

    Managed also to displace a 90+kg guy from over me which was cool but have to reinforce my back as its a bit strained today.

    Also, felt for the first time the awfulness of somebody pinning you down on your shoulder crossed in front of you - it felt like just a little bit more of weight and pop it goes - definitely need to strengthen up!

    I have another question: last lesson I have been paired for most of the first part with an orange belt - I feel like probably training with somebody more experience would have been more beneficial, the fact is I do not want to tie up brown/black belts as I imagine they want to train at a different intensity level. Still, I realise that if I stay among the "lowborn" my progress will be less marked.
    Is it ok to annoy the higher grades with my white belt clumsiness or will this cause me to become "that guy"? In the advanced class on tuesday this is less of an issue as most of the people have high grades anyway.
  5. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 11:14am


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On the knee wraps issue: my coach advised getting some wrestling kneepads when I was having minor knee issues. They add a little bit of stability, keep the knees warm, and and are a nice bit of protection for falling, groundwork, and extended periods of kneeling.

    Just thought I'd share.
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 5:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zargor View Post
    After we talked about it guess what - we did ukemi! Yay! They are a bit different from the Aikido ones but I did ok, rolling no problem, back no problem, side no problem, got to work a bit on forwar roll when you land with both legs and tuck your head also I tried to do cartwheels but my body refused and just did rolling ukemi - need to work on this!


    In the advanced class they do not do ukemi and concentrate more on techniques + randori, the beginners class does them but not always, depends on how the instructor decides to structure the lesson.

    We were shown how to transition from knees holding the head into the ambar and break the locked hands, that was very cool as the leverage used (forearm/elbow) reminded me of how Aikido manipulates the joints, got it straight away and it's sweet, now just have to learn to actually use it :D

    Managed also to displace a 90+kg guy from over me which was cool but have to reinforce my back as its a bit strained today.

    Also, felt for the first time the awfulness of somebody pinning you down on your shoulder crossed in front of you - it felt like just a little bit more of weight and pop it goes - definitely need to strengthen up!

    I have another question: last lesson I have been paired for most of the first part with an orange belt - I feel like probably training with somebody more experience would have been more beneficial, the fact is I do not want to tie up brown/black belts as I imagine they want to train at a different intensity level. Still, I realise that if I stay among the "lowborn" my progress will be less marked.
    Is it ok to annoy the higher grades with my white belt clumsiness or will this cause me to become "that guy"? In the advanced class on tuesday this is less of an issue as most of the people have high grades anyway.[/QUOTE]

    I'd say work with the people your instructor tells you to work with and have some patience. It sounds like they know what they are doing, plus you are very new. Asking questions is usually fine, use your adult judgement.

    Take it at a pace your body can stand. Judo is super intense, way more than any aikido I've ever seen, you can hurt yourself if you try to do too much too fast. The technical base of Judo is very broad, although some people think not because of the intense randori and competition. The kihon of Judo are just as important as in aikido, so build a solid base and let your body get used to the increased load.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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