Posted On:8/13/2013 9:02pm
Originally Posted by Chili Pepper
Agreed. There's not a lot of mass to go through any armour, so useless on the battlefield.
As a hidden civilian weapon (folded in a sleeve, or wrapped around the waist), I suspect it would do a good job of controlling some territory - nobody wants to be the first guy to catch that across the skull.
Much the same for the three-sectional staff, and I suspect those weapons were also used for their "holy crap, he must be an expert if he's willing to use one" factor.
I'm guessing it had much greater application in civilian life or even as a police weapon, since you could use it to restrain in a variety of ways.
As battlefield weapons? Nah. If you went into battle with one of those you'd likely be as much a danger to the guys beside you as the dude you want to off.
Posted On:8/13/2013 9:23pm
Style: Taijutsu, Hsing I
Unfortunately I've been attacked with something similar to that, although I would call it a manriki gusari or kusarifundo. Fractured my wrist ( because I blocked it..... ).
The guy who was using it had it wrapped around his arm, inside an old M65 field jacket. It can cover a lot of distance quickly, but that is also its shortfall. I was able to run up on the guy before he could reload. However, wetware is correct. It's as flexible like a rope. The best employment is to throw a strike and then entangle with it, followed by joint locks, chokes, whatever.
As a military weapon, well, you would need some protection from your fellows. As a law enforcement tool, that's more likely. The ability to snare an arm holding a weapon, or legs, just too good to pass up.
Posted On:8/27/2013 11:58pm
Hidden weapons; who has the time? Why, people with no fighting to do, that's who. That's the story in Japan, anyway; samurai in the Edo period got up to all sorts of nonsense, including chained weapons. If Qi Jiguang's units are any indication, warfare in China was a similar story. Soldiers already training with polearms and swords would probably opt for smaller versions of those weapons than broach the wacky world of chained weapons.
Rather, I would suspect that if there's a battlefield connection it's via a larger weapon that incorporated a chain (e.g. the chigiriki, a chest-height staff with a flail attachment, was at one time widely taught in Japanese schools and is thought to have been imported from China).
Posted On:9/03/2013 11:45am
Style: TKD, MT, KEMPO
Read about a guy in the 70's in a magazine there was a riot, and he used it to fend off looters who were trying to rob his electronics shop. I would think it would be a gang fight or police weapon. Actually, more likely a gang fight weapon, to injure, not kill possibly. Also, you could use it with the broadsword- ensnare with one hand, finish with the other. It has the cool factor, that is for sure. I have wondered if the 3 section staff was a disposable weapon- relatively cheap to make to attack horsemen. What the horses legs then kill the dismounted horse men with a sword or spear. Also, you could put some mace like stuff on the ends, like that guy in the old Shaolin Movie with Jet Li.
"Coffee is for Closers" GlenGarry Glenross
pro nonsense self defense
Posted On:9/06/2013 4:18pm
Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs
Originally Posted by new2bjj
Actually, more likely a gang fight weapon, to injure, not kill possibly.
Don Rearic's old site mentioned a Romanian streetfighting weapon that was a skinny-ish chain with fish hooks attached. I reckon that could still cause nasty injuries even if blocked.
Also, you could use it with the broadsword- ensnare with one hand, finish with the other.
I'm not too convinced that one-handed flexible weapon ensnaring techniques work very reliably at all.
I have wondered if the 3 section staff was a disposable weapon- relatively cheap to make to attack horsemen. What the horses legs then kill the dismounted horse men with a sword or spear. Also, you could put some mace like stuff on the ends, like that guy in the old Shaolin Movie with Jet Li.
From a practicality perspective, you'd be better off making 2 sectional staves, the precursor to the three sectional staff. One stick several feet long, with a shorter one tied to one end. Less hardware and labor to manufacture, more intuitive, and it would work better against a guy on a horse. It also closely mimics the agricultural flail, a giant nunchaku used worldwide and often converted for the battlefield (Europeans would just add spikes to an agricultural flail).
Posted On:9/07/2013 8:34am
Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis
Two clips on flexible weapons, from my training camp last year
(apologies for the sounds of the belt sanders, etc. in the background)
"Letís pretend it isnít,Ē said Rabbit, ďand see what happens.Ē
Posted On:9/08/2013 2:17pm
Style: Hung Fist, BJJ, Qi Gong
Originally Posted by nomamao
I don't know how true it is, but I know a few people from Hung Ga lineages were supposed to really favor the 3-section-whip when they went into battle. Yueng Ling, I think it was, was supposedly pretty fierce with it, and would bring it to "business meetings," if I remember correctly. I'm sure if you're not expected to have it, and let it fly, it's a great surprise, and then you can use it much like any sharp load to stab and punch with.
Just dropping in with a few tidbits.
Yuen Ling's chain whip was made of heavy iron, too. Modern ones are much lighter.
Mok Gwai Lan (Wong Fei Hung's last wife, Yuen Ling's Dai si mo) on Hong Kong TV is I think the oldest chain whip video you'll find online. Pretty surreal to watch an 83 year grandmother swinging a metal whip around her back.
I personally view it as a utility weapon. Can be used for striking, choking, pulling. The ends (of the real ones) can also be sharpened and used for slashing/stabbing.
Pretty nasty weapon, battlefield or not.
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 9/08/2013 2:20pm at .
Posted On:9/09/2013 11:45am
Style: Jujitsu Aikido Bodycombat
When I think of battlefields I think of armies. When I think of armies, I think of formations of troops.
The chain-whip strikes me as a weapon that needs room to use which means it couldn't really be used on mass in formation or they'd end up in a tangled mass of limbs and chains. Perhaps it could be used during single combat...
(If I'm really honest when I think of the chain whip I think of these guys who would be deployed well away from your own troops if possible...)
Posted On:9/09/2013 7:55pm
Mair taught the use of the Threshell or "peasant flail" before he got himself hung for embezzling town funds to produce Martial arts treatises...my kind of politician.
One of Mair's focus' seems to be on unusual items for the German tradition "war scythe" "sickle" etc whether this is due to eccentricity or the focus of mayor on weapons easily available to his people could be debated.
It does raise the question that weapons such as these and those being discussed may have been used in war, but in general the medieval treatises focus more on single combat and duels than ranked combat and battle formations.
Posted On:9/10/2013 9:11am
I am thinking a concealed weapon of last resort, like guys that carried chains to gang fights, instead of clubs or large knives. Most modern MA movies like to use the chain whip in ways that defy gravity and physics, so that says something about their utility. Also, this is going to sound incredibly racist, but could it have been used against frailer, weaker opponents, making it more regionally effective? I don't know?
Nice find on the thresher. It is interesting that you almost never see the 2 section staff demo'd or in movies. It seems more practical than the 3 section. I saw a guy do a form back in 1974 or 75 at a Bok fu tournament (ugh, yes, that is where I trained for a few years). It was a legit guest from Taiwan.
Finally, I think some weapons are in the popular culture because they are "cool" and may have been very uncommon in actual use. Look at Hsing Yi, Tai Chi and Pa Kua, as well as Ba Ji. You rarely if ever see those systems in the movies, yet they were very popular with security guards in ancient China.
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