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  1. drewtoby is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 1:09pm


     Style: Leaving Bullshido =P

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The way to avoid being taken down is to learn to grapple. The way to develop getting-up skills when someone does manage to take you down is to learn to grapple.
    Okay, I can see why I am confused about stuff like this. My combat-oriented school was just that. We learned how to counter throws, basic grappling (side and straight), as well as defense for when we are on the floor and our opponent is not. I guess it comes down to the school.
  2. Dork Angel is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 2:42pm


     Style: Jujitsu Aikido Bodycombat

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    Quote Originally Posted by drewtoby View Post
    With the wide skill base of Hapkido how could you not be effective? You learn strikes, kicks, throws, blocks, basic ground work, weapons, break falling (I used this several times in real life), and especially grabbing. Your opponent may be better in one area, say kicking, but you are better in the other areas. Plus, if you have the speed you can trap kicks and use take downs.

    Also, people say it is not effective against a fully resisting opponent. Isn't that why we learn strikes? Induce a second of pain and their resistance will lower for that second, long enough to flow into a finishing move.

    Finally, you don't need to learn the thousands of moves. Just make a few become second nature and mindless. You can apply many of the moves in more than one strike, grab, ect. This is where you become dangerous to grab, strike, ect.

    I know no martial art or artist is perfect, and you can always be defeated no matter what. But, I see hapkido as a good skill set to add to your arsenal. If you disagree, please state your reason. I want to see if my logic is flawed as many people don't speak kindly of hapkido on here.
    I do not know much about Hapkido but from your description it sounds like the traditional jujitsu style I trained in (i.e. block - strike - throw - lock; and a lot of defences against different grab and holds). The syllabus consisted of a large variety of moves which were learned against specific attacks. Like you, what I liked about jujitsu was that we did a bit of everything.

    After 10 years of training and instructing however I stopped believing this is the best way to learn. We learned moves in long chains, but if any of those chains got broken you were lost. The more you learned the more complicated it got. I could see people doing a throw and then stopping as they tried to remember which lock went with that throw when in reality it didn't matter which one. More choices makes you slower not faster. I feel our syllabus was overcomplicated and bloated (I suspect so we could say we had more throws/moves than our competitors). Yes there was a lot of good stuff in there but it was hard to find.

    Like you say, one or two good moves from a variety of attacks are better but if that's not how you train then that's not how you will fight. I now believe you should train for position and striking/evasion, throws and groundwork are separate skills and need to be drilled as such. You strike until you in a position to throw, you throw until you are in a position to lock. A professional footballer will not just spend their time playing football all the time. They will train separately in the different skills required (i.e. dribbling, tackling, shooting and passing). Then in a match they will use the skill they need based on what is required at the time rather than waiting for the ball to be in the right place.

    Most of the people here seem to worship at the altar of live sparring and while I don't agree with them 100% they have a point. Yes there are some moves you wouldn't do while sparring that you would do in reality but that is far outweighed by the advantage of learning to hit a moving target, learning to avoid being hit by someone who tries to hit you more than once and how to grapple with someone who resists your throws and locks. This way you are learning skills rather than just repeating patterns and hoping one of them matches the situation you are in.

    On the other hand, maybe Hapkido training is nothing like my Jujitsu training in which case just gave away all my dirty secrets for nothing...
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 2:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drewtoby View Post
    Okay, I can see why I am confused about stuff like this. My combat-oriented school was just that. We learned how to counter throws, basic grappling (side and straight), as well as defense for when we are on the floor and our opponent is not. I guess it comes down to the school.
    What do you mean by side and straight grappling?
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 2:56pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by drewtoby View Post
    If you pull off a good hit to the groin or solar-plexus though, wouldn't your response instantly be to bend in pain, or at lease lessen your tension from the pain/shock of impact? Just my thought, but I see your point.
    Depends, I've been dropped I've also foght through it and kept sparring. The only way to know is to actually spar with intent and unscripted.

    How much do you spar?

    Most of the people here seem to worship at the altar of live sparring and while I don't agree with them 100% they have a point.
    This snark is usually posted by someone who doesn't understand bullshido. It is the overwhelming altar of proof and aliveness, not just live sparring. When there are MULTIPLE MMA, wrestling, boxing, fencing, Karate, Judo or Muay Thai champions that only do forms and choreographed one steps then the altar will change.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 8/05/2013 3:59pm at .
  5. alex is offline
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 3:23pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drewtoby View Post
    Okay, I can see why I am confused about stuff like this. My combat-oriented school was just that. We learned how to counter throws, basic grappling (side and straight), as well as defense for when we are on the floor and our opponent is not. I guess it comes down to the school.
    No. go to a BJJ school and see how well these techniques actually work against someone who is -actually- trying to take you down. please. maybe then you will understand what live training is all about.

    dont be scared homie
  6. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 3:44pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Drewtoby...the number of times you have used the adjective 'combat-oriented' to describe your school is a big red-flag to me as to what you were actually learning.

    Can you guess what people who are in actual combat train? Hint: Not hapkido.
  7. drewtoby is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 8:02pm


     Style: Leaving Bullshido =P

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Drewtoby...the number of times you have used the adjective 'combat-oriented' to describe your school is a big red-flag to me as to what you were actually learning.

    Can you guess what people who are in actual combat train? Hint: Not hapkido.
    I am describing it combat-oriented: and our school was just that. We trained 200 true hapkido moves at max but applied them in all types of situations, added strikes before all of our moves, and any combo moves were left open ended so we could do whatever was needed to our opponent to finish. We emphasized perfecting our moves. It was no means a true "combat hapkido" school.

    I guess you guys (especially alex) are pushing me towards more full contact martial arts. I can now see why. Thanks for your insight and helping to challenge my ideas: I appreciate your constructive critiques.

    I now plan to cross train sometime in the future, I was leaning towards TKD but BJJ sounds like it could cover some of my weaker areas, and enhance my hapkido knowledge. At least now I know that HKD (at least where I was) provided me a good base to work from.
  8. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 8:16pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drewtoby View Post
    I now plan to cross train sometime in the future, I was leaning towards TKD but BJJ sounds like it could cover some of my weaker areas, and enhance my hapkido knowledge. At least now I know that HKD (at least where I was) provided me a good base to work from.
    nice, you are on your way to learning something that actually works. youre on the path that so many people here started on (including myself)- training some BS art, heard from others to try something more alive, and you are on the verge of dipping your toes. be aware that once those toes are dipped chances are you will go fully over to the dark side, and 5 years from now wonder why you were wasting your time before. you'll spend a while justifying it to yourself, and cross training both, but eventually, you will succumb to it and start training in the martial arts that will actually teach you to fight. i once was a belt wearing, spin jump kick throwing, kiaaing mofo with a full repertoire of anti takedown and drill forms. and now, i actually know how to fight. its a great feeling.
  9. goshinbudoJJ is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2013 8:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Judo, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by alex View Post
    nice, you are on your way to learning something that actually works. youre on the path that so many people here started on (including myself)- training some BS art, heard from others to try something more alive, and you are on the verge of dipping your toes. be aware that once those toes are dipped chances are you will go fully over to the dark side, and 5 years from now wonder why you were wasting your time before. you'll spend a while justifying it to yourself, and cross training both, but eventually, you will succumb to it and start training in the martial arts that will actually teach you to fight. i once was a belt wearing, spin jump kick throwing, kiaaing mofo with a full repertoire of anti takedown and drill forms. and now, i actually know how to fight. its a great feeling.
    Take this to heart. Embrace the old adage about emptying your cup before it can be filled again... this is the same advice I was given when I first posted here. It has served me well. You will need to do some unlearning before the real (fun) learning can begin.

    Beware, BJJ is like crack. Once you fight on your back, you'll never go back (perverted pun intended).

    Good luck!
  10. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2013 5:55am


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drewtoby View Post
    Thanks! All good points, and I can see that I should look into cross training sometime in the future. I was looking into BJJ, but was unimpressed with the ground work emphasis. I would not want to do that in a real fight.
    Strange, as this is why I chose BJJ. It seems counterintuitive but actually makes sense, the more grappling you train the greater your chance of regaining your feet as you are more likely to be in control of the situation on the floor.

    Plus it's a great way of getting fight experience without being punched in the face. Once you tap someone who is bigger, tougher, younger and stronger than you, who is fully resisting, simply because you are more experienced, you'll understand the real value of training 'alive'.
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