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  1. 02-6611-0142-1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 12:36am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Why do people call Helio Gracie the founder of BJJ?

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    So I've been reading a bunch of BJJ history lately, (These articles I enjoyed particularly: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/10/2...istory-origins) and I can't work out why people worship Helio, but in particular I can't work out why people call him the founder of the art. I remember reading somewhere once that "every BJJ student should know his lineage right back to Helio."

    But my lineage goes back through Carlson, so I guess he's not even in my lineage. Jigoro Kano seems to have been a great innovator as both a martial artist and an educator, and we know exactly what his innovations were: He took elements from three existing styles of jiujitsu and cut it down to a core syllabus that would work for small people and could be trained safely. What were Helio's?

    The more I read about him the less I like him. In his fights he lay in guard for hours on end until his enemies were too tired to fight. He got angry when anybody tried to incorporate new things into his style. When beaten by a leglock he called it "Suburban trash", which I assume means he feels like his own jiujitsu was a classy thing exclusively for the upperclass gentlemen.

    Modern BJJ in most places seems to be the combination of the Gracie family jiujitsu, Luis Franca's jiujitsu, Luta Livre, Judo and Sambo. And all of those things are just the most recent iterations of thousands of years of martial arts advancements throughout history, all over the globe. I just don't understand where this myth came from about Helio in particular. Can somebody tell me what his specific innovations were, and how he came to his position of power in the family, and how he got himself named as the inventor of BJJ?
  2. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 5:55am

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Trolling, Burnie? Or legit question?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

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  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 6:08am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He founded GRACIE Jiujitsu. Yes, he branded his name to BJJ and they CLAIM it is different. So, you can argue that as truth or semantics, but it is different than being the founder of BJJ.
  4. 02-6611-0142-1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 8:02am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not trolling, legit question. I'm not hating on Helio so much as asking what his contribution to the art was.

    Here's a quick thing that's probably a gross oversimplification:

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    Okay, so in the top row we know that Fukuda was big on applying technique in randori, Iso was big on kata, and Iikibuo was big on technical throws.

    Kano we know about.

    Vasili we know incorporated a host of Eastern European wrestling styles, and Maeda integrated catch wrestling as well as the "see if it works by fighting people" approach.

    Luis Franca we know was into leglocks (so i guess Maeda must have known some, so I guess early judo must have included some), and Euclydes was a separate integration of Judo and Catch from Maeda's.

    On the bottom row we know that Rolls was big on travelling and learning new things from outside the family art, and we know that Carlson was big on having an aggressive top game. Helio was supposedly more technical while Carlson was more physical. But what does that mean, exactly? Did he invent the guard? I honestly don't know.

    Gracie, Franca and Euclydes students cross pollinated so much that it's hard to see them as separate after that point.

    I just see Helio's name thrown around so much as the "founder" of what's a long and complicated chain of people, that it got me interested in trying to work out what he actually invented.
  5. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 11:44am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJJ was not invented by Helio. It was invented by Korea.
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
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  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 2:09pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 02-6611-0142-1 View Post

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    From what I understand he is the one that changed the focus to being ground and positional focused. Also in your flow chart here the problem is you need to put one of these

    between him and Carlos.
    Basically what happened was Carlos taught him Judo of the day and Helio emphasized the ground and taught Carlos this. Changing their brand of Judo to GJJ.

    Now lets be honest here Helios GJJ in comparison to modern BJJ looks about as different as Kano's Judo does to Modern Judo.
  7. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 10:00pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    From what I understand he is the one that changed the focus to being ground and positional focused. Also in your flow chart here the problem is you need to put one of these

    between him and Carlos.
    Basically what happened was Carlos taught him Judo of the day and Helio emphasized the ground and taught Carlos this. Changing their brand of Judo to GJJ.

    Now lets be honest here Helios GJJ in comparison to modern BJJ looks about as different as Kano's Judo does to Modern Judo.
    Ah, so there was a big feedback and review loop between Helio and Carlos then and this is really what helped put together the solidification of the whole "B/GJJ" thing?

    Carlos and Helio were using AGILE METHODOLOGIES, OMG.

    Is there a clear definition, in any material, that states the impact and Carlos as accepting Helio was the "creator"? Or is it accepted that this feedback occurred and people should just *know* this happened but the focus on ground was Helio's and thus he's the 'progenitor' of the whole Guard-Ground-Newaza --> This is B/GJJ thing?

    Damnit, now I'm interested more.
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  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 10:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Miyagi View Post
    Ah, so there was a big feedback and review loop between Helio and Carlos then and this is really what helped put together the solidification of the whole "B/GJJ" thing?

    Carlos and Helio were using AGILE METHODOLOGIES, OMG.

    Is there a clear definition, in any material, that states the impact and Carlos as accepting Helio was the "creator"? Or is it accepted that this feedback occurred and people should just *know* this happened but the focus on ground was Helio's and thus he's the 'progenitor' of the whole Guard-Ground-Newaza --> This is B/GJJ thing?

    Damnit, now I'm interested more.
    I don't recall exactly where I got my information that it was Helio that really brought the focus to the ground but BJJ hero article on the both of them is quite interesting

    http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...cie-sr-profile

    http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/helio-gracie

    The thing that stand out to me is as with any combat sport with alive sparring your going to have a certain amount of "Agile" development.
  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2013 10:38pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now for my personal yet humble opinion on the matter Rolls Gracie is a more important figure for Modern bjj than his predecessors.

    http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...gracie-profile

    and of course you have

    Royce who was key to promoting the system
    http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/royce-gracie
  10. PDA is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 8:51am

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where does Eddie Bravo fit into all this?
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