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  1. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 9:55am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jumping in late here:

    Knife hand - Not the most useful and I prefer a hammerfist (which goes along with MCMAP nowadays). I don't know if it's very useful to use it to target much except for the neck or kidneys though. But that being said, you can use it like a hammerfist and incidentally in grappling situations. It's easy to turn a right parry into a hammerfist or chop to the neck. In incidental usage, anytime you need to throw someone with one arm posting on the neck and the other grabbing a leg (or grabbing the weapon arm and back heeling), you can often strike at the neck using the forearm or wrist area. The shock of it makes them move backwards and sets up the throw better.

    I've also seen people use hammerfists and chops to beat down incoming dagger thrusts. I'm not sure how useful this is because I've never done it myself. I've noticed that intercepting the weapon hand with the forearm often provides a painful shock to the other person's arm and may be enough to sometimes make them drop the weapon.

    Examples:

    http://wiktenauer.com/images/6/6b/Pi...si_MS_7v-c.jpg
    http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/...470&handle=zm#
    http://wiktenauer.com/images/e/e1/Pi...si_MS_3v-c.jpg

    Chin jab - I think it's only useful as a transitory movement. By that I mean this: an uppercut palmstrike that is then mutated into another hold. If someone grabs you around the waist, you can use it get them off of you or to throw them. But it doesn't work well if you simply strike out and then keep the same grip on the chin. So it works best if:

    I. The knee comes in first and then is followed up with the chin jab, as the jab is already set up.

    II. You parry a blow and then jab, and after that grab something else. So you could parry, jab, and then take your jabbing hand and grab their helmet or hair. If you grab the back of the hair or helmet, you turn it into a back heel. If you grab the front of the hair or helmet, you throw them over your leg\thigh.

    III. You parry and jab, and then immediately throw them backwards with a grip on the belt or back. Must be immediate and you can't post up on the chin.

    If you strike out, softly or roughly, and keep the palm on the chin for too long of a time, the other person can easily stop the throw by striking against the outside of your elbow and then counter you.

    Example:

    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8514426f/f83.item
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 10:15am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Blow #3: Boot (Side kick):
    With a few exceptions, you should always
    kick sideways, for you are thus able to put
    more force behind your blow and can, if
    necessary, reach farther.
    1. Turn your right side to your
    opponent, putting the weight of
    your body on your left foot.
    Bending your left leg slightly from
    your knee, raise your right foot two
    to four inches off the ground, as in
    Fig. 7. Shoot your right foot
    outwards and upwards to yourright, aiming to strike your opponent's leg just below the knee-cap.
    2. Follow the blow through, scraping down your opponent's shin with the edge
    of your boot from the knee to the instep, finishing up with all your weight on
    your right foot, smashing the small bones of his foot. If necessary, follow up
    with a chin jab with your left hand (Fig. 8).
    Note. - Where the kick is to be made with the left foot, reverse the above



    Ah, the low side kick. The White Whale of debilitating fighting techniques. Many have gone on about how one of these can end a fight in one move, but even in a world where Youtube has vids of missile drop kick and karate chop knockouts, I've yet to see one of a side kick to the knee working the way its supposed to.

    In arnis, we sometimes use edge of the shoe kicks to intercept an incoming kick before stepping in to a counter (with the hands). But as a knee-shattering kick? I think the problem with that is that the weight has to be planted just right, and a fighter is constantly moving their legs and shifting their weight around, so its not as easy to do as some would think. Plus you're standing on one foot. I wouldn't recommend this to someone I was training in a minimal amount of time.

    What we have here, though, is a little different than a normal low side kick- we have a kick followed by a shin scrape, followed by an instep stomp. Seems to me that by combining all three together, you do less damage than any one individually.

    Thoughts?
  3. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 10:21am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Blow #3: Boot (Side kick):
    With a few exceptions, you should always
    kick sideways, for you are thus able to put
    more force behind your blow and can, if
    necessary, reach farther.
    1. Turn your right side to your
    opponent, putting the weight of
    your body on your left foot.
    Bending your left leg slightly from
    your knee, raise your right foot two
    to four inches off the ground, as in
    Fig. 7. Shoot your right foot
    outwards and upwards to yourright, aiming to strike your opponent's leg just below the knee-cap.
    2. Follow the blow through, scraping down your opponent's shin with the edge
    of your boot from the knee to the instep, finishing up with all your weight on
    your right foot, smashing the small bones of his foot. If necessary, follow up
    with a chin jab with your left hand (Fig. 8).
    Note. - Where the kick is to be made with the left foot, reverse the above



    Ah, the low side kick. The White Whale of debilitating fighting techniques. Many have gone on about how one of these can end a fight in one move, but even in a world where Youtube has vids of missile drop kick and karate chop knockouts, I've yet to see one of a side kick to the knee working the way its supposed to.

    In arnis, we sometimes use edge of the shoe kicks to intercept an incoming kick before stepping in to a counter (with the hands). But as a knee-shattering kick? I think the problem with that is that the weight has to be planted just right, and a fighter is constantly moving their legs and shifting their weight around, so its not as easy to do as some would think. Plus you're standing on one foot. I wouldn't recommend this to someone I was training in a minimal amount of time.

    What we have here, though, is a little different than a normal low side kick- we have a kick followed by a shin scrape, followed by an instep stomp. Seems to me that by combining all three together, you do less damage than any one individually.

    Thoughts?

    Really, it blows my mind that anyone would ever advocate the use of this technique in a combat situation. NOBODY is going to be bothered by this in the least during an adrenaline pumping, life or death, hand to hand combat scenario. They won't even notice it. If someone asked them to remember it after the battle (after they skullfucked the person who wasted time trying to stomp on their shin), they probably wouldn't even realize it happened.
  4. Grey_Southpaw is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 11:23am


     Style: MMA, Hoshinsul

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I agree with all permalost's assesments on this one. This kick can't even be a good checking type kick because of the low aim. I'm not a fan of this technique

    Sent from my LG-L38C using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 11:28am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Blow #3: Boot (Side kick):
    With a few exceptions, you should always
    kick sideways, for you are thus able to put
    more force behind your blow and can, if
    necessary, reach farther.
    1. Turn your right side to your
    opponent, putting the weight of
    your body on your left foot.
    Bending your left leg slightly from
    your knee, raise your right foot two
    to four inches off the ground, as in
    Fig. 7. Shoot your right foot
    outwards and upwards to yourright, aiming to strike your opponent's leg just below the knee-cap.
    2. Follow the blow through, scraping down your opponent's shin with the edge
    of your boot from the knee to the instep, finishing up with all your weight on
    your right foot, smashing the small bones of his foot. If necessary, follow up
    with a chin jab with your left hand (Fig. 8).
    Note. - Where the kick is to be made with the left foot, reverse the above



    Ah, the low side kick. The White Whale of debilitating fighting techniques. Many have gone on about how one of these can end a fight in one move, but even in a world where Youtube has vids of missile drop kick and karate chop knockouts, I've yet to see one of a side kick to the knee working the way its supposed to.

    In arnis, we sometimes use edge of the shoe kicks to intercept an incoming kick before stepping in to a counter (with the hands). But as a knee-shattering kick? I think the problem with that is that the weight has to be planted just right, and a fighter is constantly moving their legs and shifting their weight around, so its not as easy to do as some would think. Plus you're standing on one foot. I wouldn't recommend this to someone I was training in a minimal amount of time.

    What we have here, though, is a little different than a normal low side kick- we have a kick followed by a shin scrape, followed by an instep stomp. Seems to me that by combining all three together, you do less damage than any one individually.

    Thoughts?
    OK, you wrote "fighter". I get the impression you mean a trained fighter, in our modern tradition of combat sports. That's the modern paradigm.

    I see the method of Fairborn not for that paradigm. I have never been in combat, however, I don't imagine there are or were many occasions in which two combatants squared off and engaged in fisticuffs. That certainly is not how it has been described to me by men I have known who actually engaged in HTH in combat or dire self defense situations.

    So, in the context of the short, fast, and brutal world of killing, I can see the side kick and variations to the knee in some form as being very useful.

    I see the combination of kick, shin scrape, and instep stomp as being logical follow through..the side kick (or variation) will lead to attackers weight going into the kick, so sliding down the shin makes sense body will (can) follow to close the distance for further attack/finishing.

    I'd hate to get kicked in the knee, instep, or anywhere else in an form by a guy wearing combat boots, or for example my smokejumper boots.

    If I've gone off due to misunderstanding, my apologies. I don't see these techniques in light of modern combat sports.






    Name:  Hathorn Smoke Jumper Boots.jpg
Views: 389
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    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 11:41am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    OK, you wrote "fighter". I get the impression you mean a trained fighter, in our modern tradition of combat sports. That's the modern paradigm.

    I see the method of Fairborn not for that paradigm. I have never been in combat, however, I don't imagine there are or were many occasions in which two combatants squared off and engaged in fisticuffs. That certainly is not how it has been described to me by men I have known who actually engaged in HTH in combat or dire self defense situations.

    So, in the context of the short, fast, and brutal world of killing, I can see the side kick and variations to the knee in some form as being very useful.

    I see the combination of kick, shin scrape, and instep stomp as being logical follow through..the side kick (or variation) will lead to attackers weight going into the kick, so sliding down the shin makes sense body will (can) follow to close the distance for further attack/finishing.

    I'd hate to get kicked in the knee, instep, or anywhere else in an form by a guy wearing combat boots, or for example my smokejumper boots.

    If I've gone off due to misunderstanding, my apologies. I don't see these techniques in light of modern combat sports.






    Name:  Hathorn Smoke Jumper Boots.jpg
Views: 389
Size:  27.1 KB

    The flaw in that thinking IMO (on top of my belief that the shin kick is worthless because pain isn't enough in an adrenaline state) is that the kickee is also wearing boots, which will protect a decent portion of their shins.

    Also, the boots worn by the majority of our military forces, past and present don't have soles nearly as gnarly as the ones in your picture.
    Last edited by Devil; 8/02/2013 11:44am at .
  7. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 1:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    The flaw in that thinking IMO (on top of my belief that the shin kick is worthless because pain isn't enough in an adrenaline state) is that the kickee is also wearing boots, which will protect a decent portion of their shins.

    Also, the boots worn by the majority of our military forces, past and present don't have soles nearly as gnarly as the ones in your picture.
    I was thinking a bit broader than "military only", but point taken.

    There is pain and then there is pain. The pain of a shin breaking is pretty intense I imagine (I've seen it in soccer games...tib-fib clean break...ugh). The kick to the knee can straighten it, creating a momentary opening, cause the guy to have to dodge or block, setting up further action.

    I do agree about adrenalinalized states making one more inured to pain, all of us who have been in combat sports (or manual, skilled labor jobs, etc.) have experienced that. I've been kicked full on in the balls in judo randori and shiai, won the match or finished the round, and then collapsed off the tatami in pain. In a life or death situation it's even more so I imagine.

    I also think it's important to not see all of these things in black and white...not saying you do, but it's a good caveat to mention, as well as context. I posted in another thread about "Kesa Gatame and BJJ" that a lot of beginners and intermediates see stuff in black and white or this and that, etc. Again, not saying that is going on here, but I get that flavor every now and then.

    The Bronco Kick will be a good example...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 1:27pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    OK, you wrote "fighter". I get the impression you mean a trained fighter, in our modern tradition of combat sports. That's the modern paradigm.
    I use fighter in the sense of one who is fighting, trained or not. In either case they'll still have fairly similar physiology, thought their reactions may be different.

    I see the method of Fairborn not for that paradigm. I have never been in combat, however, I don't imagine there are or were many occasions in which two combatants squared off and engaged in fisticuffs. That certainly is not how it has been described to me by men I have known who actually engaged in HTH in combat or dire self defense situations.
    In that case, I think the first thing to go out the window is footwork that doesn't close in on the opponent. I guess there's a narrow window when their knee may be vulnerable, but wouldn't be a first choice for me if someone is rushing in for the kill, cause if it doesn't work just right, I'm sideways standing on one foot at the moment they reach me.

    So, in the context of the short, fast, and brutal world of killing, I can see the side kick and variations to the knee in some form as being very useful.
    That world also includes all sorts of uneven terrain though, which I imagine would make this more iffy.

    I see the combination of kick, shin scrape, and instep stomp as being logical follow through..the side kick (or variation) will lead to attackers weight going into the kick, so sliding down the shin makes sense body will (can) follow to close the distance for further attack/finishing.
    I learned that falling forward into a kick is bad kicking form, so I'm sure this would feel weird to me. That's not to say that the way I learned is the only way though.

    I'd hate to get kicked in the knee, instep, or anywhere else in an form by a guy wearing combat boots, or for example my smokejumper boots.
    Yeah, but it seems that the more intuitive and better positioned way to do so would be a front kick style shin/knee kick with the toes turned out to hit with the inside rather than outside edge of the boot. Like this:

    When kicking like that, all weapons still point towards the opponent, and the arms could be used defensively if they crash through your kick.
    The advantage of the side kick is that you can also keep your head away but I don't think Fairbairn taught it that way.
    Last edited by Permalost; 8/02/2013 1:30pm at .
  9. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 2:55pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I was thinking a bit broader than "military only", but point taken.

    There is pain and then there is pain. The pain of a shin breaking is pretty intense I imagine (I've seen it in soccer games...tib-fib clean break...ugh). The kick to the knee can straighten it, creating a momentary opening, cause the guy to have to dodge or block, setting up further action.

    I do agree about adrenalinalized states making one more inured to pain, all of us who have been in combat sports (or manual, skilled labor jobs, etc.) have experienced that. I've been kicked full on in the balls in judo randori and shiai, won the match or finished the round, and then collapsed off the tatami in pain. In a life or death situation it's even more so I imagine.

    I also think it's important to not see all of these things in black and white...not saying you do, but it's a good caveat to mention, as well as context. I posted in another thread about "Kesa Gatame and BJJ" that a lot of beginners and intermediates see stuff in black and white or this and that, etc. Again, not saying that is going on here, but I get that flavor every now and then.

    The Bronco Kick will be a good example...

    My evaluation of the technique is 100% in the context of military combat because that's what this instructional was intended for. It was also intended to give combatants something to fight with if they had no training.

    Even in combat, a well trained fighter is probably capable of doing all sorts of **** effectively. Your average Joe isn't though, and even many decently trained fighters would find themselves incapable of performing anything more than the most basic attacks relying on gross motor movements that don't require finesse or accuracy. Basically, they might have to rely on HULK SMASH and it's variants.

    That's why the bayonet is a universal weapon for hand to hand combat. There's nothing to teach. Scream and stab. Scream and stab. You die or they die. No skill involved. It's so simple and instinctive you can fight with it even when you're consumed by fear, injured, disoriented, etc.

    The reason I'm completely against attacking the limbs with strikes is that I believe for this type of instructional nothing should be included if it doesn't have the potential to kill, break a limb or render your opponent unconscious. Shin kicks don't fit the bill. Can they break a limb? Theoretically. Is it likely? No.

    If I were to write a similar training manual it would include basic punching, instinctive chokes like the standing guillotine and RNC, knees to the face from the clinch, stomps to a downed opponent, some basic ground n' pound, **** like that.

    A lot of stuff in the Fairbairn manual doesn't fit the bill to me, including shin kicks. I think anything that doesn't incapacitate your opponent is an opportunity for them to kill you. I think most troops would sincerely appreciate the prospect of someone they had to kill making the wasted effort of a shin kick.
    Last edited by Devil; 8/02/2013 3:01pm at .
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2013 3:44pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    My evaluation of the technique is 100% in the context of military combat because that's what this instructional was intended for. It was also intended to give combatants something to fight with if they had no training.

    Even in combat, a well trained fighter is probably capable of doing all sorts of **** effectively. Your average Joe isn't though, and even many decently trained fighters would find themselves incapable of performing anything more than the most basic attacks relying on gross motor movements that don't require finesse or accuracy. Basically, they might have to rely on HULK SMASH and it's variants.

    That's why the bayonet is a universal weapon for hand to hand combat. There's nothing to teach. Scream and stab. Scream and stab. You die or they die. No skill involved. It's so simple and instinctive you can fight with it even when you're consumed by fear, injured, disoriented, etc.

    The reason I'm completely against attacking the limbs with strikes is that I believe for this type of instructional nothing should be included if it doesn't have the potential to kill, break a limb or render your opponent unconscious. Shin kicks don't fit the bill. Can they break a limb? Theoretically. Is it likely? No.

    If I were to write a similar training manual it would include basic punching, instinctive chokes like the standing guillotine and RNC, knees to the face from the clinch, stomps to a downed opponent, some basic ground n' pound, **** like that.

    A lot of stuff in the Fairbairn manual doesn't fit the bill to me, including shin kicks. I think anything that doesn't incapacitate your opponent is an opportunity for them to kill you. I think most troops would sincerely appreciate the prospect of someone they had to kill making the wasted effort of a shin kick.
    I thought it was a kick to the knee, followed up by scraping down the shin, then a instep smash. Not just a kick to the shin.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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