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  1. ermghoti is online now
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    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 9:54am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ+Sanda

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, man. I'm Facebooking that for WTF bait.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
  2. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 9:57am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think the chop is totally worthless. I see some pretty good uses for it. As far as the wrist area goes, it may not be the best idea if the other guy is just trying to throw strikes at you. But if he has a knife and is trying to stab you, this is a pretty good use for it. A lot of people use the "limb distruction" idea in empty hand versus knife. Where you will use punches/chops at the arm that is coming toward you with the knife in combination with footwork to get away from the knife afterwards. I've done this a lot in training and it works pretty well. And when you are on the receiving end of those chops to the arm, it freaking hurts.

    I've seen people dropped by that chop to the neck(brachial stun) in the academy. I've seen it used in real life against inmates and it dropped people. Usually it's taught as a palm strike, but no reason why a hand chop wouldn't work.

    I wouldn't use it on the spine or kidney area. As far as breaking bone with this strike, it's possible but not likely unless you have done **** loads of conditioning first. Which I don't think is the point of this manual, so I would throw that idea out.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 11:16am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some chops in action:










    Note: only the first vid is a confrontation, the rest are tests of the brachial stun. Its possible that some went down because they were supposed to, but there seems to be consistency with how they fall and respond. Also, the main chop used is a palm up one, which Fairbairn said you should never do.
  4. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 11:28am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I don't think the chop is totally worthless. I see some pretty good uses for it. As far as the wrist area goes, it may not be the best idea if the other guy is just trying to throw strikes at you. But if he has a knife and is trying to stab you, this is a pretty good use for it. A lot of people use the "limb distruction" idea in empty hand versus knife. Where you will use punches/chops at the arm that is coming toward you with the knife in combination with footwork to get away from the knife afterwards. I've done this a lot in training and it works pretty well. And when you are on the receiving end of those chops to the arm, it freaking hurts.

    I've seen people dropped by that chop to the neck(brachial stun) in the academy. I've seen it used in real life against inmates and it dropped people. Usually it's taught as a palm strike, but no reason why a hand chop wouldn't work.

    I wouldn't use it on the spine or kidney area. As far as breaking bone with this strike, it's possible but not likely unless you have done **** loads of conditioning first. Which I don't think is the point of this manual, so I would throw that idea out.
    From doing a bit of rubber knife sparring. I tended to block hard and every now and then their knife would come out.

    I would sugest these were pretty close to judo chops in effect. Some hit with the palm some hit with the ridge and some hit with the forearm.

    The reasoning was to snip the hand out and back before they could get that cut on the arm. Just a tiny bit of space to go for something else.


    So judo chopping the arm has some merit.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  5. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 11:37am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will se how I go explaining this.

    Most movement in fighting is to either creating a position or taking advantage of one. So if we move away from the idea that we are going to stand there and throw a chop and the other guy dies. To we are creating small timing and space advantages untill the other guy dies. Then we could incorporate chopping.

    So for example the thai grapple can be judo chops without really effecting your overall system.

    Boxing in general does not have downward striking. Sorta. there is an overhand right. Thai does have a downward elbow. Somewhere in the middle of that there should be oportunities for downward chops to the neck that is not covered by other striking systems.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 12:38pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Moving on (but feel free to say your peace about shuto if you haven't): Blow #2- the Chin Jab

    Fairbairn's description:
    "Deliver this blow with the heel of your hand, full force, with the weight of your
    body behind it, and fingers spread so as to reach your opponent's eyes, as in Fig. 4.
    Always aim at the point of your opponent's chin (Fig. 5)

    Deliver the blow upwards from a bent arm and only when close to your opponent.
    The distance the blow will have to travel will depend on the height of your
    opponent, but will seldom exceed six inches.

    Never draw your hand back, thus signaling your intention of striking. From start to
    finish, make every movement as quickly as possible.
    Remember that an attack, or an attempt to attack, with the knee at your opponent's
    testicles will always bring his chin forward and down.
    Note.- Practice this blow as follows: Hold your left hand at the height of your own chin,
    palm downwards; jab up quickly with your right, striking your left hand, as in Fig. 6."


    Note: in his other books (and similar ones like Biddle's), there's a more complete picture of the chin jab. It isn't a straight palm thrust under the chin, or a kung fu tiger's claw. Its an uppercut to rock the head back, followed by raising the elbow and pushing the arched head down into the ground, ususally with the other hand keeping their body from just stepping back (that's why I picked the above pic to show grasping the lower back). Other books show grabbing the belt buckle, arm, or crotch. So the dynamics of the takedown part are a little like a bodylock takedown almost, but with the hand to head instead of shoulder to chest. I've seen aikidoka do this sort of thing but with the palm on the forehead.

    Here's Carl Cestari demonstrating:


    It looks like it could be done while sidestepping a punch, the way you sometimes see guys enter for an arm triangle. I'd call this one plausible against an unskilled rushing or grabbing attack, since striking the chin certainly works, and head takedowns can work. Fairbairn also taught this alongside a knee to the testicles, since moving the head back makes the pelvis stick out and attacking the groin makes the chin stick out.

    Here's Fairbairn demonstrating some in a super cheesy video:


    Thoughts?
  7. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 3:51pm


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going to weigh in with a statement from Bas Rutten to get thoughts going.

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...broken-hands/1

    Bas says hands can break using Pancrase-style open-hand strikes. But he thinks today's fighters should consider using them more often:

    "I love palm strikes because you have a longer reach. Normally when you give a left hook and then a right straight, you are TOO close for the right straight, why? Because the hook is shorter. When you give him instead of a left hook a left palm strike, NOW your right arm (that follows) can really extend, thus has way more impact."
    Maybe there's something in the palm strike style hits. As for the techniques. Can't say much; never done an open palm strike. Look forward to what people have to say.

    Just to confirm; what is this supposed to achieve in the way of results. Is this a debilitating strike or a prelude to a take down. I ask because of the elevation of his elbow in the picture. If it was an upwards strike I would imagine his elbow to be much lower. With its high elevation it almost looks as if he's trying to force the opponent to the ground and in the video they seem to result in take downs. The book never actually mentions if it's a 'take down' style attack or a proper uppercut. Only how to deliver the blow.
    Last edited by Ignoscant; 7/30/2013 4:00pm at .
  8. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 4:27pm


     Style: Humbleness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    We're going through things systematically. We haven't even gotten to the chin jab yet. Patience. If we try to go over everything at once, we'll discuss nothing, and the fact that he taught a testicle grab is independent of his teaching of shuto, for instance.


    Like Devil said, if I were teaching short term self defense (in fact, I am, to my girlfriend right now), the curriculum would be quite a bit different.
    Kinda off topic

    The syrian rebels train Karate or Tang sang do or something like that




    In my shitty opinion if I were to train some rebels in hand to hand combat I would go for a Judo Muay thai mix, with a lot of elbows, punching and kneeing, judo throws and stomping. Or some sambo based stuff
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 4:29pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoscant View Post
    Just to confirm; what is this supposed to achieve in the way of results. Is this a debilitating strike or a prelude to a take down. I ask because of the elevation of his elbow in the picture. If it was an upwards strike I would imagine his elbow to be much lower. With its high elevation it almost looks as if he's trying to force the opponent to the ground and in the video they seem to result in take downs. The book never actually mentions if it's a 'take down' style attack or a proper uppercut. Only how to deliver the blow.
    Get Tough's description is pretty brief, but based on other sources its supposed to be a strike to the chin that does the damage that a chin strike does, plus rocks the head back to set up the takedown. So it starts as an uppercut (elbow down) and transitions to elbow up (pushing down) after the chin is rocked back. Some teach to finish with an o soto style reap too.
  10. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 5:48pm


     Style: Humbleness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
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