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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 9:05pm

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    What hand injury would be worse for getting your hands on your weapon again? A broken hand from a bad punch or a broken pinky from a bad chop?
  2. Ira Poon is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 10:20pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    That doesn't mean he wasn't full of **** though. If I had to prepare somebody for unarmed combat in a short amount of time, the training damn sure wouldn't include open hand strikes to the arms. There's a lot of wasted time in that book.

    I'm not saying Fairbairn was Ashida Kim or anything. It was a different time and he was working with what he had. We just know better now what works and what doesn't.
    Yeah, I was just trying to put it back into the context of when the manual is written and what it is for. You made a good point about things improving over time though, and I'm not saying that Fairbairn doesn't suck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    We're going through things systematically. We haven't even gotten to the chin jab yet. Patience. If we try to go over everything at once, we'll discuss nothing, and the fact that he taught a testicle grab is independent of his teaching of shuto, for instance.

    Like Devil said, if I were teaching short term self defense (in fact, I am, to my girlfriend right now), the curriculum would be quite a bit different.
    I just thought that the way that he says "seize/knee his testicles" or "if necessarily, knee him in the testicles" for pretty much every single bear hug as funny as the bronco kick, that's all.

    And testicle grabbing/kneeing is one of the things that I associate the most with Fairbairn anyway.

    As to your point about teaching quick self-defence, remember that Fairbairn was also not dealing with one-on-one training, but training a large class of people using the shortest amount of time as possible. He was not trying to teach one person some quick basics; the manual is designed to churn out soldiers with some combat capabilities.

    I'm not saying that he isn't full of crap, however. I just thought that to analyse a historical manual like this one we shouldn't just focus on "does this and that technique actually work" but also look at the historical context from which the manual was written for and why it was written.
    Last edited by Ira Poon; 7/29/2013 10:40pm at .
  3. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 10:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    What hand injury would be worse for getting your hands on your weapon again? A broken hand from a bad punch or a broken pinky from a bad chop?
    I'd guess broken hand from a punch, since there's more structure there that's supporting the weapon and probably more absorbing recoil.
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 11:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I'd guess broken hand from a punch, since there's more structure there that's supporting the weapon and probably more absorbing recoil.
    Given the context this migh make a chop better? Use it to get back to your knife or pistol. Although what are the odds your going to break your hand bad enough for it to make a difference?
  5. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 11:18pm


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Given the context this migh make a chop better? Use it to get back to your knife or pistol. Although what are the odds your going to break your hand bad enough for it to make a difference?
    Against an opponent that is trying to kill you in the fear of being killed by you? I would imagine I would use anything I could manage to hit him with. And I would say that training a punch is much harder than training a knife hand chop. Even if it is indefinitely more effective.

    Edit: Of course in a combat situation of life and death I'd likely throw / hit them with anything I could get my hands on too. So in the unlikely scenario that it is a street fight with nothing to pick up in the vicinity and within the context of having a weapon like a gun available or in the way (grabbed) I would imagine a chop would be rather effective. Hypothetically speaking; because I wouldn't want to release my weapon and punching would be far more difficult than a palm strike or chop.
    Last edited by Ignoscant; 7/29/2013 11:22pm at .
  6. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 11:56pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoscant View Post
    Against an opponent that is trying to kill you in the fear of being killed by you? I would imagine I would use anything I could manage to hit him with. And I would say that training a punch is much harder than training a knife hand chop. Even if it is indefinitely more effective.

    Edit: Of course in a combat situation of life and death I'd likely throw / hit them with anything I could get my hands on too. So in the unlikely scenario that it is a street fight with nothing to pick up in the vicinity and within the context of having a weapon like a gun available or in the way (grabbed) I would imagine a chop would be rather effective. Hypothetically speaking; because I wouldn't want to release my weapon and punching would be far more difficult than a palm strike or chop.
    I really don't get the part how teaching to punch takes longer than teaching to chop. Watch the vid Holy Moment posted. People with little to no training dropping opponents with single punches, that cause them to fall hard and hit their head on the ground unconscious. Setting up a bronco kick, if you will.
  7. Ira Poon is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 12:08am


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    Also, according to this, human hands are designed for punching. Which makes this "punching breaks your hand" idea very unlikely.

    Edit: Here is the published work mentioned in the above link by David Carrier. And his responses to critiques.

    That said though, I think we need to remember that battlefields are not streets and they are entirely different environments. In a streetfight your opponent isn't far less likely to carry arms and wear hard helmets that will block your punches, and you yourself are carrying arms and thus most of the time you would be using them- any hand-to-hand combat training is there for backup and exceptional cases where you and your enemies are not armed. Also, this is a course designed to train more than 2000 volunteers to become special forces in as little time as possible. Both points actually now make me cringe when I think about how RBSDers are using it for streets: that's not how the course is designed at all.
    Last edited by Ira Poon; 7/30/2013 12:40am at .
  8. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 3:03am


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I really don't get the part how teaching to punch takes longer than teaching to chop. Watch the vid Holy Moment posted. People with little to no training dropping opponents with single punches, that cause them to fall hard and hit their head on the ground unconscious. Setting up a bronco kick, if you will.
    I don't really have enough detail in this area to argue the point. And I don't entirely disagree with you. I have little to no teaching experience and I've never tried to teach anyone a knife hand chop. I'm just assuming that it'd be 'easier' to teach a knife hand chop to a group of people without needing to specifically identify their flaws in technique.

    Again - it's a groundless assumption and it holds no bearing. I would say the vid Holy Moment posted has far more knowledge in the area than I do. So I'll just accept this as invalid argument and teaching to punch has been validated as 'not difficult to teach'. Onwards.
  9. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 9:08am

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    What hand injury would be worse for getting your hands on your weapon again? A broken hand from a bad punch or a broken pinky from a bad chop?
    You're going to get a nearly identical injury. If you break your hand with a chop, you're going to break the 5th metacarpal.

    The most common punching injury is the boxer's break, which is a break of the 4th or 5th metacarpal from punching.

    It's a wash.
  10. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 9:44am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I laughed when Dempsey explains that anybody can knock a man out because if you dropped a baby from height on someone, it could knock them out.
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