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  1. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 5:07am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd think the odds of cleanly dropping him across your knee are slim-to-none, let alone actually breaking the spine. Head spike seems a lot higher percentage. It's a goofy throw for a basic curriculum either way, they've opted for a low-percentage grand-slam kill shot rather than a reliable take-down which you can then follow up.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 11:34am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it might do more damage if you just slammed them into side control since they'd hit the hard ground and they'd fall an extra two feet or so without your knee to stop it and your weight would land on top.
  3. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 3:31pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    .
    I believe the back breaking potential increases against opponents with the name "Bruce Wayne."



    This technique, as shown, looks awesome against a "jerry" just standing there in front of you. I have a hard time believing it would work against a dynamic adversary trying to seriously hurt me. On the other hand, I've seen something similar as a defense against a side headlock. I even pulled it off once against a high school wrestler who wasn't expecting the technique. No, I didn't finish with the back-break maneuver. It worked partly because it was unexpected, and partly because the opponent was, indeed, standing still (much like the picture has the "Natzi" stock still) as he tried to control me. I can't swear an opponent wouldn't be able to continue, because we were friends and just fooling around. But the motion worked against someone actively working against me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post

    Let's keep this going so we can get to knocking a man out with a matchbox and attaching a prisoner to a tree by making them grapevine it.
    Oooooo. Looking forward to the prisoner vs. tree technique...
  4. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 4:10pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bane back breaking Batman was bunk in the movie. Look at all the drama implied by the exploding monchromatic background and jagged text! In the movie I had to explain to my girlfriend that Bane broke his back and that's why Batman was wincing from such a casual looking attack.
  5. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 5:14pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    This technique, as shown, looks awesome against a "jerry" just standing there in front of you. I have a hard time believing it would work against a dynamic adversary trying to seriously hurt me. On the other hand, I've seen something similar as a defense against a side headlock. I even pulled it off once against a high school wrestler who wasn't expecting the technique.
    It's a real throw, sukui-nage in Judo IIRC. The canonical form there is less of an outright power move than Fairbairn's version though, you throw him back over your hip rather than hoisting him up like the motherfucking Hulk.
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 5:46pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    It's a real throw, sukui-nage in Judo IIRC. The canonical form there is less of an outright power move than Fairbairn's version though, you throw him back over your hip rather than hoisting him up like the motherfucking Hulk.
    Kind of as an aside, Sukui Nage (the canonical version, as SPB called it), is a throw taken directly from various koryu jujutsu/sogo bujutsu ryu/ryu ha. It was used while grappling in armor originally, and has different variations and names, there are similar throws that do not use the "scoop" (the Sukui part of the name in Judo) principle. There are related throws in Judo, Obi Otoshi et al.

    As far as breaking someone's spine goes, well, I think that would be pretty hard to do. The spinal column is pretty flexible, and bends the direction of the attempted break. There are some techniques in judo kata that involve dropping a person backwards (take a look at goshin jutsu, and especially Koshiki No Kata, where you can imagine dropping uke onto you knee.

    Hoisting a guy up when you and he probably are wearing combat gear (modern body armor today, WW2 battle kit of various sorts) seems to me to be tough to do. Too much stuff to get in the way/get hung up on.

    Even Sukui Nage doesn't involve that much of a lift, but uses a scooping action/principle.

    The angle is really wrong to drop someone on your knee. Dropping a guy on the back of his head, though, is pretty easy to do if you use good follow-through. A guy loaded down with gear will have harder time getting to his feet off his back, and will perhaps tip backwards easier than someone not loaded.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 6:20pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chair and knife:
    "Most lion tamers consider a small chair to be sufficient to keep a lion from attacking them. Should you be so fortunate as to have a chair handy when your opponent is attacking you with a knife, seize the chair as in Fig. 72. Rush at him, jabbing one or more of the legs of the chair into his body. The odds in favor of your overpowering your opponent are roughly three to one, and well worth taking (Fig. 73)."



    I really doubt Fairbairn's 3-to-1 odds in this situation and wonder how he got that figure (number of table legs vs number of knives?). It would seem that the knifer in this scenario could use Fairbairn's own knife method (left lead to create openings) to yank the chair to the side and attack. I've never done any sort of training with or against a chair though. I reckon if the odds were so massively in favor of the chair wielder then one would be better off bringing a chair to a knife fight than a knife, and that just doesn't seem true at all.
  8. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 6:28pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chair has obvious portability problems as a side-arm...

    I can see using a chair to pin a guy against a wall or something, but that diagram lacks the answer to the obvious question "I've lightly bruised jerry with the chair leg in the belly, what the **** now?"
  9. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2013 6:28pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Chair and knife:
    "Most lion tamers consider a small chair to be sufficient to keep a lion from attacking them. Should you be so fortunate as to have a chair handy when your opponent is attacking you with a knife, seize the chair as in Fig. 72. Rush at him, jabbing one or more of the legs of the chair into his body. The odds in favor of your overpowering your opponent are roughly three to one, and well worth taking (Fig. 73)."



    I really doubt Fairbairn's 3-to-1 odds in this situation and wonder how he got that figure (number of table legs vs number of knives?). It would seem that the knifer in this scenario could use Fairbairn's own knife method (left lead to create openings) to yank the chair to the side and attack. I've never done any sort of training with or against a chair though. I reckon if the odds were so massively in favor of the chair wielder then one would be better off bringing a chair to a knife fight than a knife, and that just doesn't seem true at all.
    I kinda chuckled at the 3:1 odds myself. I imagine that the trainers wanted to imbue the trainees with the sense that they were learning "unbeatable" techniques, to give them confidence in what they were learning so they would pay attention and also maybe actually use the stuff.

    My first judo instructor was a master gunnery sgt in the USMC, and he taught a lot of self defense along with regular Judo. He went into the corp right at the end of WW2, but the war was over just as he was ready to deploy. He ended up as a POW camp guard on Guam holding Japanese accused of war crimes.

    When we were working on knife defenses, his first advice was to use anything we had at hand to put between us and the knife wielder...he suggested everything from a book to a chair, lunch tray, etc, to keep distance.

    I think using improvised weapons would be important, be it a chair, shovel, tree limb, so in principle I think Fairbairn's advice to use a chair is sound. One thing to remember is that soldiers were not likely to be facing highly trained knife fighters.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2013 8:04pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    It's a real throw, sukui-nage in Judo IIRC. The canonical form there is less of an outright power move than Fairbairn's version though, you throw him back over your hip rather than hoisting him up like the motherfucking Hulk.
    I stand corrected. I was not familiar with sukui-nage as a formal throw, although it appears to be very close to what I learned (years ago) as a headlock escape. I was imagining something very different from the Fairbairn illustrations, but now that I've looked up several different sukui-nage illustrations and video, I can see that was a limit of my imagination.

    I learned something -- that's a good thing!
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