It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.
Posted On:7/26/2013 7:14pm
Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu
Yo, denizens of Bullshidoís lifting heavy **** forum.
SoÖ This has gotta be my first post in years.
Iíve returned to training after a four year hiatus due to injury. I tore my left labrum and then underwent fairly extensive physical therapy for this and also for the four bulging discs in my neck that I picked up somewhere. During that four year break I learned a lot about strength training and tried to use corrective lifting to fix the problem in my shoulder. I had cortisone injections, PRP injections, physical therapy and finally broke down and had the surgery.
During that year I worked myself to a 3 rep at 375 back squat and a 1 rep max 475 deadlift. I deadlifted 475 one year after shoulder surgery.
After the physical therapy for my neck was completed a few months ago, I was cleared to train again without major restrictions. ďJust donít be a fuckin retard,Ē said my physical therapist. Heís a colorful guy. I was instructed to avoid overhead pressing and back squats for a while, so I switched to front squats.
Iím training at NY Combat Sambo and still lifting which brings me to my questions here, Iím looking for some critiques and suggestions for how best to alter my current programming so that Iím maximizing my effectiveness. My goals are to continue to train and remain as healthy as one can in this injury-prone sport. I am also considering, albeit casually at the moment, fighting again. This is my first time training with a combination of both weights and martial arts. Thereís a fair bit of thought and work thatís gone into my weight training, but itís very possible that it doesnít make sense anymore with my current setup. I do not, as you will see, subscribe to any specific lifting program like Stronglifts or 5,3,1. Or maybe I do, but if I do, I assure you it's pretty much an accident.
Oh, stats: I'm six feet and walk around at 195lbs and I don't use any aids for lifting, knee wraps, belts, straps, etc. Just chalk.
Thank you all in advance for any constructive advice you might have. My lifting program is the same on both days that I do it and Iíve included my current numbers. My overall training schedule is below it.
Warm-up: several sun salutations from hatha yoga.
Front Squat: 5 reps at 135, 5 reps at 155, 5 reps at 185, 5 reps at 225, 3 reps at 245
Deadlift: 5 reps at 225, 5 reps at 315, 3 reps at 415, 1 rep at 435
Chin-ups: 5 sets of 7 reps, weighted with 55lbs
Dumbbell flat bench: 5 reps at 75 in each hand, 5 reps at 80, 5 reps at 85, 5 reps at 90, 3 reps at 95
Overall training schedule:
Tuesday: grappling, mma and then team practice after
Wednesday: sambo with the jacket
Thursday: combat sambo (mixed bag of skills)
Friday: weights again.
Last edited by JP; 7/26/2013 7:23pm at .
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant;
they too have their story.
-excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
Posted On:7/29/2013 2:01pm
I think your program seems good considering you are quite strong and injured. As the saying goes "why fix something that's not broken"
In saying that once you have been given the all clear to back squat and overhead press I would change to 5/3/1. I am going to assume you know abit about it and if not I would highly recommend you get the e-book or use the power of google to get the general idea of what it is about. It is a very versatile program ie you can train 2,3 or 4 days a week and you can change the accessory exercises to suit your goals. Another good thing about 5/3/1 is the progression is alot slower than 5x5 or starting strength ( especially to start with) but that is a good thing, when you are strong like yourself or just old like me who doesn't want to get battered in the gym anymore.
Recently I changed to a 2 day a week program as finally I have started boxing after just being a gym rat for many years. Here is my current program to give you an example of what may suit your needs with fitting in around your Sambo training.
Romanian Deadlift 3x10
Chin Ups 5x10
Overhead Press 5/3/1
Good Mornings 3x10
DB Rows 5x10
I also do face pulls (important for the rotator cuffs I think) in between pressing exercises and biceps and ticeps at the end of my workout if I have time and can be bothered, as it doesn't really matter as the big lifts are done and the important accessory exercises are completed. In Wendlers new book Beyond 5/3/1 he goes into different options to increase volume on the main lifts which I have also incorporated such as first set last.
Another option to also consider is to google Dan John as he has some very good "simple" but effective programs such as 2 Times a Week for Twice the Gains and The Southwood program.
I didnt really come up with any original ideas to give you but why invent the wheel. Keep it simple and concentrate on your Sambo as that seems to be your main goal and don't neglect mobility and conditioning and the increase in strength will come with a simple program.
All the best with your lifting and if you have any questions let me know.
I am no expert I am just another weightlifting addict!
Last edited by Mutch; 7/29/2013 2:31pm at .
Posted On:7/29/2013 7:26pm
Thank you so much for replying and with such helpful advice too, I was afraid this thread was going to languish in here unanswered.
"In saying that once you have been given the all clear to back squat and overhead press I would change to 5/3/1.I am going to assume you know abit about it and if not I would highly recommend you get the e-book or use the power of google to get the general idea of what it is about."
I haven't been given the all-clear yet for those exercises, but I may stick with the front squat in general because I've been very much enjoying the structural improvements it's made in my thoracic spine and overall posture, not to mention that enough of the throws are using a similar structure. I hit a deep bottom and pause with them as well. However, when I am cleared I will likely forgo the flat bench in favor of overhead pressing as I much prefer it. I may choose to single-arm press with kettlebells instead of a barbell. I haven't decided yet.
I do own Wendler's book and learned quite a bit from it, though I did not adopt his programming as my schedule has never been consistent enough between injuries and work to allow such long-range planning. I will give it another look on your suggestion, I feel a bit silly for not having thought of it myself.
"Another option to also consider is to google Dan John as he has some very good "simple" but effective programs such as 2 Times a Week for Twice the Gains and The Southwood program."
I'm not familiar with Mr. John, but I'll check him out.
"I didnt really come up with any original ideas to give you but why invent the wheel. Keep it simple and concentrate on your Sambo as that seems to be your main goal and don't neglect mobility and conditioning and the increase in strength will come with a simple program."
This was actually exactly what I was looking for, so thank you. Simple is something I really favor, particularly as I get enough random crazy with sambo, mma and grappling. I want my lifting to be as fortifying as possible, not another risky endeavor.
I've also ordered Kelly Starret's book "How to Be a Supple Leopard," which has to be the stupidest title on offer, but some of his youtube clips and writings have convinced me I can pick up at least a couple things from him. One think my injuries have taught me is the importance of mobility and pre-hab. None of us are getting any younger and some of us and our stupid habits seemed to have flipped the clock onto fast-forward. I'm sure I don't have to tell you about that.
Thank you again for the thoughtful advice and good luck to you as well.
Posted On:8/01/2013 10:37am
Style: BJJ blue, judo ikkyu
In the interest of traffic to this thread I will contribute, despite both of us being aware who is stronger and better experienced in designing strength programs.
The rep scheme for front squats is interesting. I've always stuck to 3 work sets, but I think this contributed to some injuries and overtraining. You have given me an idea.
Careful with one-rep-maxing while also doing combat sports. I found that I was able to continue upping my deadlift with 1 and 2 rep sets, but my form was deteriorating because I wasn't actually getting that much stronger while also doing BJJ. Switching to snatch-grip Romanian deadlifts from the floor was a good change of pace that pointed out mobility issues, helped strengthen my thoracic spine, and kept my regular deadlift steady.
Dumbbell bench sounds great. Chins sound great, though as I've mentioned before I'd consider higher-rep sets with less weight, for both shoulder health and the dark succubus of upper body hypertrophy.
What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
Posted On:8/01/2013 5:01pm
"us being aware who is stronger and better experienced in designing strength programs."
Jesus, man. I wouldn't go that far at all. Your contributions and input are always welcome. Quite a few conversations I've had with Jack about your progress and struggles have led to me making changes in my lifting.
In terms of the rep scheme with the front squats, most of this has been caution because I tweaked my back doing them a month and change ago and had to slow the **** down pay better attention to my posture.
"Romanian deadlifts from the floor was a good change of pace that pointed out mobility issues"
Jack has mentioned these to me, though minus the romanian angle. They're awesome, but I haven't been playing with them much. There's a lot that I have to change with this, but part of what's led to my concern with the programming is fatigue. Now, I haven't reached a point yet where I'm not sure that it isn't simply that I moved from lifting three times a week with very little cardio to lifting twice a week and training in an intense sport again. When that evens out, I'll know better.
Your advice via the deadlifts is helpful, I need to think about that. Likewise the dumbell benching in which I've seemed to plateau and even backslide with some worrisome consistency. There are days when 95lbs in each hand go up easy as hell and there have been others in the last few weeks where I lean back and can't even get the fucking things off my chest.
In terms of the chins, I have been playing with reps vs weight. In these so far I have also been using added weight some days and on others doing five sets of between 12. My concern with reps is bad form creeping in due to fatigue. One of the difficulties with these is the position of my neck and traps.
Posted On:8/01/2013 5:28pm
There are days when 95lbs in each hand go up easy as hell and there have been others in the last few weeks where I lean back and can't even get the fucking things off my chest.
I wish there were better books and resources out there for us amateur combat sportspeople who want to add supplemental strength and conditioning work. I've been weighing this exact problem for a while, in preparation for my hopeful speedy return to regular training. I haven't been able to find many resources that delve into handling the intersection of sport and lifting. (Tom Kurz' encyclopedic "Science of Sports Training" is the closest I've found.) The situation leaves me pretty much figuring it out myself how much is too much, what goes well with each sport, and so on.
This time last year my training volume was pretty high. Two strength workouts and two judo practices were the minimum, with an additional one or two *somethings* (lift, judo, five hour hike) most weeks. I managed the volume by taking haphazard breaks. I think my hip and shoulder got wonky when I went too long without taking one of those breaks. So "eat more and take a week off from lifting every six weeks or so" is my plan for when I find myself in a heavy-training situation again.
I also could be mistaken about the Romanian part of the snatch-grip deadlifts. Can't find Jack's pointer in my notes.
Posted On:8/02/2013 8:02pm
"I also could be mistaken about the Romanian part of the snatch-grip deadlifts. Can't find Jack's pointer in my notes."
I think it's pretty likely that it was Romanian for you, because of hamstring tightness. For all my neck and shoulder issues, I've had no problem with hamstring length. In my case, his advice pertained to thoracic stability as it applies to front squats, chins and eventually power cleans and snatches.
"So "eat more and take a week off from lifting every six weeks or so" is my plan for when I find myself in a heavy-training situation again."
This sounds like a good plan indeed. Myself, I'm giving some thought to ditching the weights gym for a while until I get to a place where I'm well-satisfied with my sports performance in the fight gym.
There is also the issue with juggling writing and my job to contend with, and while these aren't strict to the topic at hand, they're part of the overall equation.
I am toying with the idea now of acquiring some kettlebells, a hard rubber mat for them and for other things, and a chin-up and dip station for the house. If you have any input here I'd be grateful, I know you designed your own workout space, something that isn't really feasible for apartment dwellers. I'm already cringing at the idea of a dropped kettlebell.
"Tom Kurz' encyclopedic "Science of Sports Training" is the closest I've found."
Another book for the list.
"I wish there were better books and resources out there for us amateur combat sportspeople"
Part of me wants to just say **** it and force the issue, power through and do whatever I want. Some of the reason for this is my own natural stupidity and part of it is the sheer esoteric and often annoying things that pass for sports-specific training methods. It smacks very strongly of folks over-intellectualizing and generally making **** complicated for the sake of.
Posted On:8/02/2013 11:23pm
Taking weights off your plate for a while would not be unreasonable. Maybe do some light work once a week, just to stay fresh on the movements, without the goal of adding weight or reps? I keep thinking that's the right approach while doing a lot of other training...then my hormones decide I can handle a heavier set this week.
On the subject of home gyms:
My dip station was haphazard in the extreme: a coffee table with a speaker and a cinder block plus some sort of square taller table with just a cinder block and a plank of wood. Worked fine for the six months I've used it, still going strong when I stopped.
Pull-up bar is so, so, so useful to have at home. Rings are even better because they're portable. Greasing the groove is amazing, with the caveat that I only allow myself to do sets throughout the day if I've already warmed up my shoulders with a run and stretch earlier in the day.
One fifty-pound kettlebell does everything. Swings aren't too hard but not too easy either, Turkish get-ups and presses do fine with it, etc. Heavier ones are less versatile and more expensive. Lighter ones aren't useful for swings and cleans.
On padding: I used a single sheet of plywood, maybe 2 feet square. A more elaborate or prettier option would be nice if your floor isn't cement. However, if you use chalk and don't go to failure a drop is pretty rare and controlled.
Posted On:8/12/2013 3:25pm
JP, the first thing should be to evaluate what your goals are with regard to lifting. Are you looking to get stronger in the lifts, improve specific aspects of strength in your sport, improve injury-resistance, etc? It's difficult to assess the worthiness of what you are doing without context. Your general strength numbers are already fairly good, there may not be much to gain by focusing on developing this further depending on goals.
I will say that 5 straight days of what are likely moderate- to high-intensity training for you will likely result in accumulated fatigue and could easily explain why the same weights seem more difficult on certain days. The importance of monitoring and adjusting training based on fatigue are a common topic these days in training, especially with the easy availability of HRV-based monitoring systems now (Omegawave, iThlete, Bioforce, etc).
The reason there are so few books focusing on the intersection of lifting and sports training is lifting is actually a small part of the training for many, if not most sports. There's just not enough transfer in most cases to warrant a focus on general strength activities. Transfer of Training is specifically about that issue.
Some reading I'd recommend:
Transfer of Training - Bondarchuk
Ultimate MMA Conditioning - Joel Jamieson
Shitty title, great book. It contains a very good, basic overview of stress physiology in the first part of the book, and explains how and why that is so important to training.
Stress of Life - Seyle
Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers - Sapolsky
Exercise Physiology: Human Bioenergetics and it's applications - George Brooks, et al
Neuromechanics of Human Movement - Roger Enoka
Supertraining - Mel Siff and Verkhoshansky
Posted On:8/12/2013 4:47pm
Style: Judo & WTF Taekwondo
What other work are you doing around your shoulder joint and shoulderblade stability - given you managed to tear up your labrum I'm guessing there may have been some underlying stability issues???
The overall lifts are pretty reasonable, however if you're not maintaining the force coupling at the shoulder its a bit like trying to shoot a cannon out of a canoe.
For what its worth I did my undergrad in Exercise Science and have done a fair amount of Strength & Conditioning work with the guys I played rugby and beach volley ball with as well as the TKD guys I train with. I'm also about to be unemployed so feel free to throw any questions my way.
The Roger Enoka book SunTzu pointed you towards is an awesome book and will give you a great basis to work from for biomechanics.
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