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  1. Gluckmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2013 7:59pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm super excited for this. I think he's got the right idea - WTF taekwondo needs to abandon the dancing and become something more martial than foot tag.

    Head punches and leg kicks are a good start. Getting rid of the dobok might help too. And 4 points for a jumping-spinning headkick is just silly.

    Olympic taekwondo is the ultimate representation of taekwondo to the world. It needs to be a more impressive sport than it currently is. WTF taekwondo isn't commanding the respect it deserves.
  2. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2013 9:30pm


     Style: aikido

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that the WTF rules need changing, particularly to de-emphasize acrobatics and encourage more punching, but TKD also needs to protect its identity. Something that is like MMA but not really MMA will appeal to neither MMAers nor traditionalists.

    If anyone cares what I think, I think Kyokushin is a much better model for a change to TKD than MMA. Kyokushin manages to be a hardass fighting art, a traditional kata art, and a widely accessible international sport -- everything that TKD wants to be -- and it does all that without a special octagon ring, without modern sport uniforms, and even without punches to the head. How does it do that? **** if I know, but someone in TKD should be trying to figure that out.
  3. yieldingbamboo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2013 11:29pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I agree that the WTF rules need changing, particularly to de-emphasize acrobatics and encourage more punching, but TKD also needs to protect its identity. Something that is like MMA but not really MMA will appeal to neither MMAers nor traditionalists.

    If anyone cares what I think, I think Kyokushin is a much better model for a change to TKD than MMA. Kyokushin manages to be a hardass fighting art, a traditional kata art, and a widely accessible international sport -- everything that TKD wants to be -- and it does all that without a special octagon ring, without modern sport uniforms, and even without punches to the head. How does it do that? **** if I know, but someone in TKD should be trying to figure that out.
    I care, because you mirrored my thoughts exactly! I've actually started working out ideas and rules about how to go about it. Here are some unfinished notes I made a while ago just trying to come up with something tougher and which would make TKD more viable as a serious striking system. I have no idea how realistic any of this is -- they're just random ideas.

    Striking – Will consist of long, medium, and short range kicks, punches, and hand strikes, including joints such as the elbow, knee, and wrist. Finger-stabbing or single-knuckle strikes are not permitted. Kicks to the head are permitted; hand strikes to the head are not. Groin, spine, eyes, neck, and knee joints are illegal targets. Knock outs result in an instant win. Technical knock outs are subject to the arbitration of the referee in conjunction with a medical professional. Strikes will only score points when they land solidly and/or displace the body.

    Clinching – Knees and low punches can be made from the clinch so long as they do not hit the face or the base of the skull or the rest of the head. Various takedowns, trips, and throws are also permissible from the clinch.

    Sweeping – Standing sweeps reminiscent of Shotokan and Kyokushin competitions are permissible. However, merely sweeping the opponent does not cause a contender to win or gain a point. The contender must follow him to the ground and pin him there.

    Throwing – The lapel, sleeves, and jacket of the contenders are permissible to grab with one hand during striking, and with two hands for a 5 second window when attempting a throw. Some throws and mid-technique takedowns are permissible, but not all. Contender must follow opponent to the ground and pin him there to receive a point.

    Ground Grappling – Once on the ground, the aggressor must try to pin his opponent, while the opponent must try to escape, reverse the attack, and/or get back up. Submissions and strikes are not permissible on the ground. Positional dominance for a short period of time is the goal. If the pin is successful in holding the competitor for more than X seconds, a point is awarded to the one who made the successful pin. If the one trying to pin is swept/reversed and pinned, his opponent is awarded a point. Wrestling is limited to 30 seconds.
  4. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2013 11:36pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dougguod View Post
    How are we defining popularity? TKD may be the most widely practiced martial art in the world but it's by no means the most watched or commercialized (commercialized,that is, outside of its own students). I'm sure a lot of instructors make a comfortable living running daycare dojangs full of nine-year-old black belts but think of how much money is being lost without TKD pay per view bouts and Tapout-esque t-shirts and caps being sold to the basement-dwelling knuckle dragger demographic. President Choue has apparently noticed how well Dana White is making out these days.
    Some may disagree but possibly TKD could benefit from such things and it might force the WTF or KKW to promote more combative stuff. We live in a MMA world right now pretty much. That is what i see as popular.
    Not to mention that a ton of random organization or independent TKD gyms are starting MMA programs or now claim to teach muay thai (fraudulently or not).

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The martial arts tournaments I've been to generally manage to get through all of the competitors by setting up multiple rings (usually with tape squares). Even by doing this, it still takes all day for a tournament to finish. So, you wouldn't just need to set up the cage- you'd need to set up several (and the octagon shape has a lot of wasted space compared to the square ring when you line several in a row).
    If the WTF did start an octagon type ring, I am sure that local tournaments will still be square tape on a gym floor and if they are rich enough will have mats. It would be that just the major tournaments have that ring shape while small ones might not.

    It would be interesting to see if dojangs would make an octagon pattern in their training space with the mat colors like they do the square ring shape with red and blue mats.
  5. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2013 11:41pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I agree that the WTF rules need changing, particularly to de-emphasize acrobatics and encourage more punching, but TKD also needs to protect its identity. Something that is like MMA but not really MMA will appeal to neither MMAers nor traditionalists.

    If anyone cares what I think, I think Kyokushin is a much better model for a change to TKD than MMA. Kyokushin manages to be a hardass fighting art, a traditional kata art, and a widely accessible international sport -- everything that TKD wants to be -- and it does all that without a special octagon ring, without modern sport uniforms, and even without punches to the head. How does it do that? **** if I know, but someone in TKD should be trying to figure that out.
    You know what I pretty much agree with you man. And we should keep the V-neck doboks and just make them more heavy stitches like a heavyw eight gi and not light weight.
  6. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2013 1:11pm


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by yieldingbamboo View Post
    Throwing – The lapel, sleeves, and jacket of the contenders are permissible to grab with one hand during striking, and with two hands for a 5 second window when attempting a throw. Some throws and mid-technique takedowns are permissible, but not all. Contender must follow opponent to the ground and pin him there to receive a point.

    Ground Grappling – Once on the ground, the aggressor must try to pin his opponent, while the opponent must try to escape, reverse the attack, and/or get back up. Submissions and strikes are not permissible on the ground. Positional dominance for a short period of time is the goal. If the pin is successful in holding the competitor for more than X seconds, a point is awarded to the one who made the successful pin. If the one trying to pin is swept/reversed and pinned, his opponent is awarded a point. Wrestling is limited to 30 seconds.
    I think this would be going too far. TKD is not a grappling art, and does not need grappling to validate itself. No one is calling boxers, muay Thai players, or Kyokushin karatekas frivolous players for points because they don't grapple.

    Your new "grappling taekwondo" would essentially be taekwondo with second-rate judo and BJJ mixed in. TKD players who want to grapple should be cross-training, not trying to create some new all-encompassing teh deadly TKD.
  7. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2013 1:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Adding ground grappling, clinch, etc would make it more complete, but it seems like it'd also be reinventing the wheel, when the wheel has not only already been invented, but improved with spokes and inflatable rubber tires.
  8. yieldingbamboo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2013 2:21pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I think this would be going too far. TKD is not a grappling art, and does not need grappling to validate itself. No one is calling boxers, muay Thai players, or Kyokushin karatekas frivolous players for points because they don't grapple.

    Your new "grappling taekwondo" would essentially be taekwondo with second-rate judo and BJJ mixed in. TKD players who want to grapple should be cross-training, not trying to create some new all-encompassing teh deadly TKD.
    I should probably have cut that part out since I also had meant this to be a sort of cross-style competition format as well. Yes, no need for grappling. However, knock downs would be very interesting, and avoiding them would encourage players to use less flashy kicks for fear of being knocked to the ground.
  9. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2013 2:25pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by yieldingbamboo View Post
    I should probably have cut that part out since I also had meant this to be a sort of cross-style competition format as well. Yes, no need for grappling. However, knock downs would be very interesting, and avoiding them would encourage players to use less flashy kicks for fear of being knocked to the ground.
    I like the idea of knockdowns giving a point or an extra point. It would encourage powerful blows more than they do already. So heavier round kicks and punches etc.

    Now the question, hogus or no hogus?
  10. yieldingbamboo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2013 2:26pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Adding ground grappling, clinch, etc would make it more complete, but it seems like it'd also be reinventing the wheel, when the wheel has not only already been invented, but improved with spokes and inflatable rubber tires.
    No need to reinvent anything. Just include established skills; borrow from other arts. Use what works, put it together into one approved curriculum and then let each instructor add what he wants. Any way you spin it, Taekwondo owes its present form to something -- mostly Karate, and some Northern chuan fa perhaps. Some of course ascribe to the idea it was developed out of Taekkyon. Wouldn't hurt to borrow some more. Korean national pride will probably get in the way of that, though.

    Well in that case they can borrow while pretending they made it up. I don't care; just push something that is more obviously workable as a serious striking system.
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