Kicking the dead horse
What is your opinion on kicking? Kickboxers only seem to work a few kicks: The push kick, the roundhouses, and the side kick. I assume they do those kicks because they're the most effective.
However, when watching some mma fights, I see fancier kicks like spinning back kicks (not really hook kicks) thrown as well. Thus, I have to conclude that they're effective as well.
Do you agree? Is taking time out to learn fancier kicks worth it? Which kicks would be worth learning and which would be superficial? Spinning, tornado/penma, crescent, jumping kicks of all variations, flipping kicks, etc.
Or would it be better to spend the time you would've spent learning new kicks to polish up one's groundgame/basics?
Also, what's going on with tkd? I see some tkd sparring videos on youtube that are really good, but I can't seem to find out where the people actually train or what group they're affiliated with.
^Those guys are going around 20% I think.
On the other hand, most people seem to be with ITF or WTF and don't spar nearly as well (though that may be because of the rule set).
Last edited by Cuddles; 7/24/2013 10:32pm at .
If you can make them work, sure.
Originally Posted by Cuddles
Sorry to give such a bland answer, but it seems like a really bland question to me. So here some more blandness: if you've got the basics down, why not experiment with fancier stuff? Naturally, it also depends on how much time you're investing in training to begin with.
Hey, I've seen a BJJ black belt do a really fancy submission, do you think I, as a beginner, should try to learn it or should I rather try to get the basics down?
Its always nice to have a few off-the-wall tools in your arsenal. There's nothing wrong (from a technical perspective, in my opinion) with a spinning hook, spinning back, side thrust or even axe kick, provided you set it up right.
In any style, the most basic techniques will be the most-used, and a lot of fancy kicks require both a high level of expertise AND the right opportunity. When you fight other trained fighters, those rare opportunities come even less often.
Usually fancy kicks get a bad rap because most of the time when we see them, it's just someone wanting to show them off, instead of using them appropriately and intelligently. (Here is a link to me being an idiot and doing exactly this)
But, if you've practiced a kick enough (in sparring) to know when to use it and what to do when things don't go your way (does he try to rush in, catch it, sweep, etc?) it can be a great weapon in your arsenal. Of course, waiting for the right opportunity to use a kick you practiced so hard on can be unbearable (many fights will have exactly zero opportunities for you), but when you do, it will be awesome.
Really it's up to you. It's a lot of work for a low-probability payoff, but if it happens, you will be very proud of yourself.
Kicks are great if you have the footwork and timing to be in the right place at the right time. I had a fairly long kung fu background before getting into stickfighting, and my kicks have served me well, including several knockdowns in comps. There's a few videos of them on Youtube. Because of stickfighting structure, I prefer side kicks and spinning back kicks, and push kicks in double stick. I try to use angular steps as setups and a way to kick them in lines that disbalance.
Some kickboxers do have them in their tool box.
The head hunter was a bit mad keen for a spinning heel.
Jemal hasan who was mentioned in the corner is a TKD guy.
I don't remember who it was with recently that Joe Rogan was speaking with on his podcast. But, they mentioned that the wheel kick (spinning heel kick, whatever your name for it is) is nasty because its an off tempo kick, coming on an off beat from what "normal" strikes do. And we have certainly seen it used effectively in MMA as of late. (Barboza, Belfort, to name a few).
As mentioned, some of the more exotic kicks are harder to pull off than your standard front/side/round kicks. If you are a pro fighter with a lot of time to work technique and do your ten thousand reps to get a technique down, super. The average joe is probably better served making sure they get the ten thousand reps/hours of the basics. On the other hand, if you are young and just starting training, or just training for the hell of it, might as well have a signature move.
Kicks are useful, just not any more useful than any of the other necessary ranges of combat. Unfortunately, unlike my 7 year old self believed, being able to do a karate kick doesn't make you untouchable.
Cuddles you are approaching your training a little to cerebrally. Your not putting together some sort of rpg character here where you can plan everything out over 20 lvls.
You need to get in there and just train and see what works for you. Let your fight game develop a little more organically. Yes you have to make sure you have all your ranges covered but beyond that the door is wide open as to how you want to proceed and what will work best for you. I love the work ethic, I love the fact that you want to be smart about it, I love you see the economics of time investment. All that being said you just need to get in there and try things with resisting opponents of various skill levels sizes shapes builds and specialties and see what is and is not working for you. More importantly you have to see what you enjoy doing. ts that joy that will keep you coming back keep and to keep you training.
As a Judo guy ,I'm obviously not a kicker (ok, maybe some bad foot sweeps every now and then, LOL).
However, we do run into the same type of question in Judo...people want to learn "fancy" throws before they know the basics and have them down pat.
So, I would say that for any more advanced technique, the issue (as Permalost suggested) is to be able to recognize and take advantage of the opportunity to apply the technique. Of course, you have to be good enough at the technique in a technical sense to apply it well. But whatever it is, it needs to be integrated into your overall tactics and strategy, attack system, whatever you want to call it.
Of course, you can practice fancy stuff because it's fun too and not worry about it !
Falling for Judo since 1980
"You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS
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