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  1. brclry is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 4:39pm


     Style: JP Jeet June Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The Deadly Chun will have its day

    Like a heavy bag critique, please feel free to tear my pretend logic apart. I posted this on a website in a WC thread, and wanted to see what Bullshido thinks. Yes I am aware of Caged Muay Thai.

    Will a Wing Chun Fight Strategy work in MMA?
    I think that is a better question, because the techniques are built around the strategy. The thing that makes it effective is training method, but you can get less than efficient technique, and poor strategy to work with the right training method.
    So can we just assume a high quality training method when asking this question?

    What is a Wing Chun Fight Strategy?
    Punch and Clutch
    1. Hit
    2. Seek attachment with the first hit, preferably while immobilizing the opponants lead striking tools, and disrupting their balance.
    3. stay attached, keep the immobilization, get to a dominant position that allows you to continue striking.
    4. if the attachment is lost, wash rinse, repeat.
    Sounds kinda like how a muay thai person with a monster clinch game would fight right?

    Now consider this, in modern MMA, Muay thai and boxing are the two primary striking arts. Here is the problem, they have opposing mechanics. In Boxing torquing the hips is reserved for punches. When you try and teach a good Boxer Muay Thai for MMA, your asking him to save the power he would normaly use for his punches and use them for kicks instead, this is not making the most of the Boxers specialized tools.
    Solution? Dutch Muay Thai or Savate, both use the legs to set up the hands, and rotate over more on punches. To set up boxing, kicks should have the effect of closing the gap, making use of forward momentum, saving the hip rotation for the punches (Think TKD kicks, Boxing Punches VS. Muay Thai kicks, Muay Thai Punches).
    Both arts evolved with boxing gloves, which eliminates most trapping.

    The dirty boxing we see now is mostly from a wrestling platform, hand fighting in wrestling is to set up throws or takedowns, so when I watch them dirty boxing, it looks like they miss numerours opportunities to hit, because their hand positions are best used to set up grappling, not striking. Hand fighting in Muay Thai is to set up Knees and throws.
    Where does handfighting exist for the sake of hitting? I dont think there has been a rule set that has allowed that to evolve the way the other arts have. Not that chunners would do it anyways, i am just saying we cant expect to see it, in rules sets that discourage it.

    The collar tie, the neck pull, the forearm shiver, are all used in the exact same way in Wing Chun.


    If there is anyone in AZ who wants to help me make some trapping gifs from sparring footage, hit me up.
  2. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 5:20pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by brclry View Post
    What is a Wing Chun Fight Strategy?
    Punch and Clutch
    1. Hit
    2. Seek attachment with the first hit, preferably while immobilizing the opponants lead striking tools, and disrupting their balance.
    3. stay attached, keep the immobilization, get to a dominant position that allows you to continue striking.
    4. if the attachment is lost, wash rinse, repeat.
    Sounds kinda like how a muay thai person with a monster clinch game would fight right?
    No this does not sound "like how muay thai person with a monster clinch game would fight". An MT pratitioner would look to close the distance during striking, establish a plum grip - and here's the important part - break his opponent's posture and keep it broken. While he's got that posture broken, he's going to throw in the knees, hard. He's not looking to fight with strikes at grappling range. He's looking to out grapple his opponent so he can throw in some knees. Maybe a sneaky elbow on the way out if he loses the grip.

    Here is the problem, they have opposing mechanics. In Boxing torquing the hips is reserved for punches. When you try and teach a good Boxer Muay Thai for MMA, your asking him to save the power he would normaly use for his punches and use them for kicks instead, this is not making the most of the Boxers specialized tools.
    Have you actually trained in these styles?

    The dirty boxing we see now is mostly from a wrestling platform, hand fighting in wrestling is to set up throws or takedowns, so when I watch them dirty boxing, it looks like they miss numerours opportunities to hit, because their hand positions are best used to set up grappling, not striking.
    Two things here. First of all, fighters are going to miss opportunities because they're not perfect, they're not watching the fight from the third person, and they don't have a replay available. Secondly, if they're not ready to grapple in grappling range they are going to get taken down, so they need to be ready to grapple, even if it means missing a few hits.

    Where does handfighting exist for the sake of hitting? I dont think there has been a rule set that has allowed that to evolve the way the other arts have. Not that chunners would do it anyways, i am just saying we cant expect to see it, in rules sets that discourage it.
    It's a stupid theory that rarely shows good results, what kind of convoluted rules do you want to allow wing chun to shine?
  3. brclry is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 6:23pm


     Style: JP Jeet June Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    No this does not sound "like how muay thai person with a monster clinch game would fight". An MT pratitioner would look to close the distance during striking, establish a plum grip - and here's the important part - break his opponent's posture and keep it broken. While he's got that posture broken, he's going to throw in the knees, hard. He's not looking to fight with strikes at grappling range. He's looking to out grapple his opponent so he can throw in some knees. Maybe a sneaky elbow on the way out if he loses the grip.
    I was realy general on purpose, when I say strike, I mean any kind of strike including knees. I think we are saying the same thing.
    1. Hit "Close distance with strikes"
    2. Seek attachment with the first hit, preferably while immobilizing the opponants lead striking tools, and disrupting their balance.
    establish a plum grip - and here's the important part - break his opponent's posture and keep it broken
    3. stay attached, keep the immobilization, get to a dominant position that allows you to continue striking.
    While he's got that posture broken, he's going to throw in the knees, hard.

    The difference between what I do, and what your describing, is I am usualy trying to outgrapple my opponant to land fists and elbows, before knees.

    Have you actually trained in these styles?
    5 years Jeet Kune Do, never trained Wing Chun, but my JKD instructor was also a Wing Chun instructor, and there is lots of crossover.
    Only 6 months actual boxing training with a coach from a boxing gym.
    No Muay Thai
    about 14 months at an MMA gym.

    Two things here. First of all, fighters are going to miss opportunities because they're not perfect, they're not watching the fight from the third person, and they don't have a replay available. Secondly, if they're not ready to grapple in grappling range they are going to get taken down, so they need to be ready to grapple, even if it means missing a few hits.
    Good point, I am also seeing it from the biased perspective of my own training.
    We totaly agree a person has to be ready to grapple when they are in range. Good grappling is good grappling, the only difference is intent, do you maneuver to strikes? or maneuver to submissions? Either way you still gotta wrestle and roll to feel the positions and transitions.
    The opposite is also true though, if everytime you wrestle, your focused on takedowns, your gonna miss some elbows, and punches, its all about preference.

    It's a stupid theory that rarely shows good results, what kind of convoluted rules do you want to allow wing chun to shine?
    Well the theory is that training method is what makes an art effective, and that rule sets determine strategy and technique. Why is that stupid?
    Probably Kudo, or Caged Muay Thai, as long a the training method met modern standards for the sport. Personaly I think you could get rid of most of the classical system and teach according to a sparring rule set with way better results, and still get something resembling Wing Chun.
  4. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 6:27pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In Boxing torquing the hips is reserved for punches. When you try and teach a good Boxer Muay Thai for MMA, your asking him to save the power he would normaly use for his punches and use them for kicks instead, this is not making the most of the Boxers specialized tools.
    I don't see how you "save the power" by throwing arm punches. Punches with good hip torque actually set you up for harder kicks than throwing weak arm punches would.
  5. brclry is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 6:44pm


     Style: JP Jeet June Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I don't see how you "save the power" by throwing arm punches. Punches with good hip torque actually set you up for harder kicks than throwing weak arm punches would.
    Yes absolutly, but I dont think the converse is true. Good hip torque on kicks, does not set up strong punches, sure you can throw a hard cross after a round kick, but if the emphasis is on the cross, that round kick is better off being less committed so the cross gets there faster. I am admittedly drawing on my own limited experience here.
  6. BJMills is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 7:07pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I disagree with the idea that boxing and Muay Thai have opposite mechanics. I think, conversely, it's more that they have similar mechanics. Both use hip torque to generate power. In fact you can use a left kick to set up a right cross the same way you can use a jab for the same purpose. Same with elbows. The primary difference is range.

    A good striker is going to use the right tool of the right range, and use his or her hips to generate power regardless of what that range is. There are plenty of exceptions, like feinting where there is no intent of power but that's a separate conversation.

    As far as trapping, I think there is a two fold problem.

    1) it doesn't really work if your opponent isn't trapping back. if he steps away, changes levels to grab a leg, attempts a clinch or throw then you attempt at trapping falls apart.

    But don't get me wrong, it does sometimes work to pin an opponent's arm agains their body to create an opening for a hit, which brings us to...

    2) Even when in rare cases its successful, the strike delivered to a 'trapped' opponent is mediocre at best. Better to get that Muay Thai clinch and unload knees, or grab a leg, get a takedown and estsblish a dominant position, or let go fo the trap so that you can generate enough torc to deliver a far more solid strike.
  7. brclry is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 8:40pm


     Style: JP Jeet June Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJMills, I get you. Throwing a front round kick, sets up a cross just like it sets up a rear round kick, it loads the hip.
    I tend to not kick so hard, more snap less hip, if I am closing distance to throw punches, I can get into punching combos faster that way. Like I said, I dont have much experience outside of JKD, I know how to turn my hip over into a kick, but I can do more stuff with less committed kicks. So I prob should not have made the generalized statement about MT and Boxing having opposing mechanics.

    1. If its all chi sao positions, and you never learn any wrestling, trapping will not work. Trapping is a general term for using wrestling to strike, so the way I learned it, a clinch is a trap if your hitting, and arm drag is a trap if you elbow the guy to in the face. A better word than trapping is immobilization, its just dirty boxing.
    2. I agree with all that, that is how I trap, Its like trying to set up a plum position, but trying to damage on the way in. Once in the plum position, you flow into knees, or change hand positions while hitting, always trying to get in more dominant positions to hit from. Which includes take downs, to mount, or any other top striking position.

    So this is my question, is it accurate to describe wrestling for the sake of striking as trapping (Thai clinch for knees, dirty boxers collar tie)? Does it have to look like tan, lap, and pak sao to be considered trapping? If so, what do you call the other stuff?
    Last edited by brclry; 8/08/2013 8:45pm at .
  8. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2013 9:18pm


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Muai Thai and Boxing are as far from 'opposite' mechanics as possible. In fact the mechanic for increasing damage in Boxing and Muai Thai are identical.

    Both forms use Kinetic Linking almost exclusively for their striking.
    Both forms use heavy hip rotation to act as a pivot for power transfer.
    Both forms utilize a clinch to lock up the opponent (boxers do clinch)
    Both forms use loaded combos to maximize impact potential (hip loaded for right hook etc)

    The minor differences come from stance and blocking techniques. Boxing being attuned for punches and getting in closer to an opponent that won't offload a kick and also not practiced in defending the legs.

    Muai Thai attuned for defense against kicks and the ability to unload a kick on an opponent at a much longer distance and expanding on the clinch and leg fighting techniques.


    The issue I see here is your statement:

    1. Hit
    2. Seek attachment with the first hit, preferably while immobilizing the opponants lead striking tools, and disrupting their balance.
    3. stay attached, keep the immobilization, get to a dominant position that allows you to continue striking.
    4. if the attachment is lost, wash rinse, repeat.
    While Boxing and Muai Thai attempt to cover different regions. Boxing is close to medium while Muai Thai incorporates more use of the clinch, mid and long ranges - your statement says basically that Wing Chun is devised only to get into the opponent and stay there. It almost sounds as if the technique is being described as sticking around in limbo.

    Wrestling techniques train to get in close and control the opponent. Causing damage in ways that force the opponent to wrestle to get out or submit. They have several take downs and techniques to get around strikes or disable and opponent once a catch occurs which use leverage to cause damage.

    Boxing plays a mid to close range game looking for openings to level out devastating loaded blows that release maximum possible punching power on sections of the body.

    Muai Thai uses high kicks and leg kicks to impede mobility and cover the long range fighting game while changing speeds to front kicks; knees; clinch and similar body and head punch blows to boxing to maximize it's ability to control as much of the fight as possible.

    All three of these make excessive use of kinetic linking and / or leverage.

    According to your statement; Wing Chun attempts to get in but instead of controlling the opponent physically like wrestling; or unloading maximum power hits on entry like boxing, it attempts to offload punches? How does it generate power. What methods does it use to prevent an opponent blocking and moving out of the way ( I see no reason for an opponent not to cover up and then shove the practitioner backwards ) and what do you do in the Mid to Long range other than rush down your opponent? What method does it use to cause damage? Leverage? Kinetic Linking? I feel there's a lot missing in it's simplicity.
  9. BJMills is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2013 12:43am


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by brclry View Post
    BJMills, I get you. Throwing a front round kick, sets up a cross just like it sets up a rear round kick, it loads the hip.
    I tend to not kick so hard, more snap less hip, if I am closing distance to throw punches, I can get into punching combos faster that way. Like I said, I dont have much experience outside of JKD, I know how to turn my hip over into a kick, but I can do more stuff with less committed kicks. So I prob should not have made the generalized statement about MT and Boxing having opposing mechanics.

    1. If its all chi sao positions, and you never learn any wrestling, trapping will not work. Trapping is a general term for using wrestling to strike, so the way I learned it, a clinch is a trap if your hitting, and arm drag is a trap if you elbow the guy to in the face. A better word than trapping is immobilization, its just dirty boxing.
    2. I agree with all that, that is how I trap, Its like trying to set up a plum position, but trying to damage on the way in. Once in the plum position, you flow into knees, or change hand positions while hitting, always trying to get in more dominant positions to hit from. Which includes take downs, to mount, or any other top striking position.

    So this is my question, is it accurate to describe wrestling for the sake of striking as trapping (Thai clinch for knees, dirty boxers collar tie)? Does it have to look like tan, lap, and pak sao to be considered trapping? If so, what do you call the other stuff?
    I wouldn't consider an arm drag, or the Muay Thai plum, a trap. Also, in terms of the arm drag its a pretty committed move and a tactic to gain positional advantage while wrestling, or I should say while grappling becuse I've seen BJJ guys use arm drags to great effect. To me, throwing an elbow during an arm drag is going to result in a fairly ineffective elbow and take away from the speed and power of your arm drag... something you're going to need if you're trying to pull it off on a fully resisting opponent.

    I feel like you're pretty into this whole 'doing damage on the way in' striking method. The problem with that as an effective strategy is that... well, it's not that effective a strategy. You're kind of sacrificing the meat and potatoes for a whole lot of garnish.

    If you watch MMA much, you'll see stretches of time where two fighters are up againt the cage, in a clinch, pot shotting each other with short fists and elbows while they jockey for positional advantage. Those short fists and elbows seem to be where you are focused, but the reality is, while they do little damage, they are mostly a painful distraction to the real game which is getting positional dominance and working a more serious offense from there.

    I also don't think it's accurate to call wrestling for the sake of striking 'trapping.' I think you may think of it that way because- correct me if I'm wrong- you have very little knowledge of wrestling. Wrestling is really a way of controlling your opponent's entire body. You can take an arm drag out of context and say 'that's wrestling' but really an arm drag is a tool that is often used in conjunction with other tools to take your opponent's balance. Another example would be the whizzer and crossface. Pretty standard tools used in conjuction with a sprawl to stop a double leg takedown. A whizzer and crossface without a sprawl is not wrestling- or at the very least its very very bad wrestling.

    I think a lot of Wing Chun guys have a lot of theory on how fighting works, and diagrammed out on paper it seems sound, but it all falls apart with a fully resisting opponent whose is hellbent on taking you down or knocking you out.
  10. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2013 1:45am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The short answer is MMA benifits from Chun principles. They just do them right.

    Vertical fists.
    center line
    hand trapping are all mma tactics.

    Now go have a squiz at catch wrestling.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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