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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2014 7:35pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    People are letting the toys obscure the facts on this issue.
    Toys are a minor concern of mine hence why I linked to the article I did.

    Certainly not as big of a concern mind you as my rights getting trampled of course.

    The way people dress up does have a psychological effect behind it.
    http://lifehacker.com/5992874/the-ps...ee-you-at-work
    The fact is, what you wear to work changes how people view you. According to two different studies, it also has an effect on how you view yourself. So, when you're getting dressed for work, take a few seconds to consider the psychological impact of what you're wearing, how it fits with where you're going, and who you're with.
    So when you dress up like soldiers not only does the public start seeing you as such, so do you.

    Mind you this is still very broad and highly generalized.
  2. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2014 9:29pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Toys are a minor concern of mine hence why I linked to the article I did.

    Certainly not as big of a concern mind you as my rights getting trampled of course.

    The way people dress up does have a psychological effect behind it.
    http://lifehacker.com/5992874/the-ps...ee-you-at-work


    So when you dress up like soldiers not only does the public start seeing you as such, so do you.

    Mind you this is still very broad and highly generalized.
    Eh. I wore a military uniform as an MP...I didn't treat my fellow soldiers as "enemy combatants". Plenty of office personnel wore "combat uniforms"...they didn't do dynamic entries into the office every morning. :)

    In my professional opinion the real problem is in leadership. Who is making the decisions about what needs a tactical team and what does not? SWAT officers do not just drive around kitted up looking for doors to kick. They take action based on orders from their leaders which are controlled by policy isssued by Command. The idea that putting BDU's on cops influences them to make bad SWAT hits is silly. The people deciding to send SWAT in the first place are typically not people wearing those BDU's

    SWAT officers campaigning for a SWAT hit to the commanders? That can indeed happen. Or like me...I'm the narc Lt. AND the SWAT commander....but I watch myself closely....we only used the Team once in 2013 for a narc hit.

    I prefer to do car stop take downs or "walking takedowns" outside of the house. If a no-knock is needed and there is no significant evidence of weapons or previous violence then my detectives and I will hit it with patrol help. Of course many subjects then call THAT a SWAT raid. Which is another factor I rarely see addressed. People calling every no-knock a SWAT raid. Not all of them are.

    Some PD's do indeed use SWAT on ALL narc hits....some (like Detroit style ****-holes) I can understand it. Others...not so much. We don't.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 1:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes certainly policy, training, actions, and many other things are all much bigger players than gear.

    But lets not dismiss it all together.

    So you already have guys that are going into a dangerous situation.
    One which that they are expecting bad guys and most of the time I would say that is who they are dealing with.
    So you already have a nugget of seeing the people that is serving said warrant as seeing the people involved as an enemy vs a suspect.

    Now this nugget certainly can be amplified to an extent by
    Arriving in what is essentially an APC
    Looking around at your fellow officers all specked out looking like they are ready for war.
    Heavy use of military vernacular.
    Hell more than a few of them have gone to war.
    You are creating a lot of imagery their and the human pysche is susceptible to it to some extent.
    This doesn't mean everyone is going to go in and act like soldiers but it does shift the spectrum some.

    But worse yet isn't any of that stuff, its when something simply does go wrong that you now have made the public image problem all that much worse than it would have been. It gives the impression to the public at large that the police are a military type force being used against them.
    Hence this thread to begin with.

    Also its not just swat.
    We have Battle dress type uniforms on patrol officers that have arms reach access to M16s.
    It does create a more hostile image right off the bat when you have to deal with them.

    Certainly a more repressive image.

    Then you have special units like NYC Anti-terror unit


    That is a disturbing image for the public at large have we really become such a police state that officers have to keep there face covered and have to stand around so heavily armed and armored?

    Don't get me wrong I am not sitting around worrying about this sort of stuff. The vast majority of cops are good and this country is lucky to have a standard of professionalism that is in large part adhered to by the vast majority of cops.

    However when cops do go wrong and you have this militant imagery it makes all cops look like they are part of a system that is out there to put us down.

    A personal observation that is far from scientific and certainly doesn't address the root of the problem, one of my contracts has me working on bank equipment at night as late as 3:00 am in two different counties. I have my fair share of run ins with the police who get called on me due to "suspicious" behavior especially if I am working on an outside machine.

    I have found that cops that are all Tactically dressed are more likely to have their weapon pulled when approaching me than standard old uniformed cops.

    Once again that observation doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things there can be certainly a number of other factors that have lead that to being the case.
  4. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 8:54am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where are standard beat cops wearing "battle uniforms"?
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 3:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Where are standard beat cops wearing "battle uniforms"?
    The San Diego sheriffs department seems to allow them to where the cargo pants, combat boots, and a heavy looking tactical vest. Generally though they do have the nice short sleeved uniform shirt on under it vs say a bdu style shirt but you know when its under the tactical style vest its sort of a moot point.

    I could certainly be mistaken maybe these are not "standard" patrol officers they could simply be some other special detail that happens to be responding when I get the police called on me. I should note generally we are talking about a really quick response time. As I generally don't have to stay on a work site for longer then 30 min and most of the time I can wrap up in the 15 min mark. Its hard to pin point exactly when they get called by a concerned citizen to when they show up.

    To be clear by "tactical vest" I mean something like this

    not
    some huge bullet proof vest.

    I do want to be clear I am not saying the clothes themselves that are a problem outside of anything other than a perception problem.
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 5:18pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am just going to drop this here because it was an interesting read
    http://www.lawofficer.com/article/le...itional-unifor
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 5:19pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am just going to drop this here because it was an interesting read

    Tactical vs. Traditional Uniforms
    What you wear says a lot about you
    http://www.lawofficer.com/article/le...itional-unifor


    Some of the comments are pretty interesting as well.
    Last edited by goodlun; 6/28/2014 5:23pm at .
  8. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 6:59pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eh...so if you look like a WWI soldier in a round brown and jack boots that's "traditional" and "ok". But if you have "gasp" cargo pockets on your pants and an external vest carrier that's "miliarization"?

    Wearing a bullet proof vest is "ok" as long as its an under the shirt vest? IMO some folks are grasping at whatever they can to prove the "militarization" meme they already believe.

    PS...I'm just making a general statement Godlun, nothing is directed at you. You have been nothing but reasonable with your statements.
  9. mike321 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2014 7:30pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Eh...so if you look like a WWI soldier in a round brown and jack boots that's "traditional" and "ok". But if you have "gasp" cargo pockets on your pants and an external vest carrier that's "miliarization"?

    Wearing a bullet proof vest is "ok" as long as its an under the shirt vest? IMO some folks are grasping at whatever they can to prove the "militarization" meme they already believe.

    PS...I'm just making a general statement Godlun, nothing is directed at you. You have been nothing but reasonable with your statements.
    Instead of worrying about tactical vs traditional uniforms maybe we should focus on the elements we want to see in a civilian (non-military) police force. I would include identification of the agency, a visible badge, the face of the officer, and the name of the officer. Harder to objectively describe is a "professional appearance". They need to look like they are there to police the community not just physically confront citizens. To be honest, modern weaponry, equipment, and armor simply do not support this image. Smarter people than me would be needed to solve that issue.
  10. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2014 1:01am


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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Instead of worrying about tactical vs traditional uniforms maybe we should focus on the elements we want to see in a civilian (non-military) police force. I would include identification of the agency, a visible badge, the face of the officer, and the name of the officer. Harder to objectively describe is a "professional appearance". They need to look like they are there to police the community not just physically confront citizens. To be honest, modern weaponry, equipment, and armor simply do not support this image. Smarter people than me would be needed to solve that issue.
    The thing I try to preach to people is that Law Enforcement in the US is very "local". All the people who get all riled up because the "Town of East Bumfuck" just got an MRAP are just pisssing smoke unless they are residents of (or work in) East Bumfuck.

    You get the LE you want by and large unless you are the minority opinion (or are too lazy to influence your politicians ). I cant get an MRAP for my SWAT team unless the Town Board approves it. If enough "citizens/civilians" complained to the politicians about it...I wont get one. The same applies to our choice of pants. If cargo pockets scare enough people to tell their counselman "change them or we wont vote for you".... we would have to change them.

    The fact of the matter here where I work is that the majority of residents approve of how we conduct business. If that means we get an MRAP then you folks on the other side of the country can "suck it" if you think my PD is too "militarized". You don't live here.

    I don't intend to sound "cocky", but that's really the facts. For all the hype, either not enough people really care....or they are more interested in having an Internet cause than they are interested in influencing the decision makers of THEIR communities.

    For all the OMG! Militarization stories I hear I note that very few of them involve people complaining about or trying to change THEIR law enforcement agencies. It always seems to be hand wringing over some interwebs story about a SWAT hit gone bad somewhere else in the US.
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