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  1. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 8:37pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    LOL. I know better than to discuss this with you when you are in LEO Defense mode. I'll assume your rhetorical question is directed at Mike321.
    You do know that is EXACTLY what I said?
    Yes...

    I'm more just voicing my opinion and experience with forfeiture work than arguing with anyone...at this point at least. ;)
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 8:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Yes...

    I'm more just voicing my opinion and experience with forfeiture work than arguing with anyone...at this point at least. ;)
    I'm mainly referring to your "easy" and "interweb" comment. I have a friend who spent a good year trying to get 15K back. So, that's why I said "nope" to a ban, but through experience it can be misapplied. Forfiture was used as a coercion attempt to get information that he didn't have. He was the wrong person they were looking for in the first place.
  3. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 8:44pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I'm mainly referring to your "easy" and "interweb" comment. I have a friend who spent a good year trying to get 15K back. So, that's why I said "nope" to a ban, but through experience it can be misapplied. Forfiture was used as a coercion attempt to get information that he didn't have. He was the wrong person they were looking for in the first place.
    Did he get it back?
  4. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 8:58pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I'm mainly referring to your "easy" and "interweb" comment. I have a friend who spent a good year trying to get 15K back. So, that's why I said "nope" to a ban, but through experience it can be misapplied. Forfiture was used as a coercion attempt to get information that he didn't have. He was the wrong person they were looking for in the first place.
    I guess a more accurate question would be did the cops actually submit the money to the feds for forfeiture or were they holding it in PD property as "evidence"? If I am actually gonna move to take the asset, paperwork has to be filed within 30 days or I cant take it.

    Sometimes (some) LEO's will hold the cash as "evidence" as in what you described....I wont argue right or wrong on that....it is what it is.

    I don't bother taking it if I don't think I can keep it...too much paperwork hassle.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 9:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Did he get it back?
    Yes, but it was a ridiculous amount of work for mistaken identity and a paperwork snafu. Don't worry it was wrong and instead admitting the mistake they dug their heels in.
  6. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 10:01pm


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    As to civil forfeiture, I guess my concern goes along this line: why can't we seize stuff as part of criminal proceedings?

    My understanding of law is very limited but my assumption has always been that the right policy is, if someone is not found guilty then legally they are innocent and they can't hve their stuff seized. (Of course you can't return evidence that is illegal to possess.) Please explain why criminal conviction is not central to seizing stuff.
  7. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 10:33pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    As to civil forfeiture, I guess my concern goes along this line: why can't we seize stuff as part of criminal proceedings?

    My understanding of law is very limited but my assumption has always been that the right policy is, if someone is not found guilty then legally they are innocent and they can't hve their stuff seized. (Of course you can't return evidence that is illegal to possess.) Please explain why criminal conviction is not central to seizing stuff.
    In a simple answer...because seizures are predominantly a federal thing and most criminal cases are a State thing. The detailed answer is more complicated because in reality court proceedings are not as simple as people think. Hardly any cases go to full trial to be found "guilty" or "not guilty". Pleas are made, convictions to lesser charges with probation or diversion vs. incarceration are worked out sans trial.

    The feds...who where I work do most forfeitures...look at the assets from a "show me how you legitimately paid for that" angle. For example, we just took a car from a 20-something yo kid who never worked a full time job in his life. During a search warrant we discovered tens of thousands of dollars in cash along with hashish, MDMA and weed all in dealer quantaties. Investigation revealed his new car was paid for in cash (with 100 dollar bills) at the dealership. We took that too.

    All we had in terms of charges was felony level drug possession..we couldnt prove he sold drugs (we knew it..just couldnt prove it) but "come on", safes full of cash, packaged dope and new cars on a 16 hr a week part time job? The feds will argue in civil proceedings that there was no legitimate source of income to explain where all that cash came from regardless of the legal games the local DA will play.

    If he was found "not guilty" at trial should the dope be returned to him along with the cash? ;)
    Last edited by tgace; 7/02/2014 10:40pm at .
  8. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 10:43pm


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    Tgace,
    Thanks for your description. Based on that including the example you gave, I would fully oppose that. Tax evasion I can see. Even seizing asset to pay the tax bill and penalty. But seizing property because you don't know where the money comes from goes too far as a government power. Obviously the Supreme Court disagrees so ballot box is the only recourse. I don't see any candidates getting behind stopping this.
  9. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2014 11:07pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A pretty balanced pro/con article on asset forfeiture.

    http://www.popcenter.org/Responses/a...feiture/print/

    Personally..I have to admit that I'm sort of in a "don't hate the player..hate the game" position. I'm confident that not a one of the cases Ive worked was a case of legitimate assets siezed as illegal proceeds, but I can see how the system can be misused.
    Last edited by tgace; 7/02/2014 11:18pm at .
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 10:36am

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Actually, my detective on the DEA task force is still paid by my Dept with the Feds reimbursing the OT he makes. He still gets a check from my Town...not the DEA.

    DARE officers (here at least) are just patrol officers paid by the Town...the Feds may supply some supporting funds for events and equipment but they are not Federal funded positions. Actually my PD just disbanded DARE and pushed the officers to other departments.
    Sure, I didn't mean to imply that task force members were paid directly by the Feds.

    The DARE stuff here is funded by grants, not sure if Fed or otherwise. The DARE officer is funded by those grants, and if the grants go away, so does the DARE program. But not the officer.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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