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  1. Bad Grappler is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2013 2:39pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I need advise on keeping side mount

    Before I get into it, a little background on myself. When i was in my early 20's, I did MMA training around 20 hours a week for 9 months, mostly MT and no gi BJJ. Had a couple of fights, and then life set in and I stopped all training. Only training I did, was what the Marine Corps required me, so not very good training, but great conditioning.

    So, after a 6 year break, I'm sporting a shiny white belt and have been working my a$$ off for the past 6 weeks. The last few weeks, I've been training 2-3 90 minute classes with a gi, and 2-3 60 minute classes with no gi each week. So around 5-9 hours of class a week. Plus as much time each week watching Roy Dean and Pedro Sauer's video's for blue belt.

    When I roll, I rarely go for a submission, unless the guy is being an ass. I put myself in bottom side mount, or mount and work my way to top and then let them reverse me and do it again. I'll threaten a sub to get the guy to move if he's just camping, but I've been devoting most my time to working escapes and reversing. Training 4-6 times a week has me pretty sore, so I only go at about 70% unless I'm trying to escape a submission.

    NOW HERE'S MY PROBLEM!

    Once I get into top side mount, I have a very hard time of keeping my partner, even new white belts, from pulling half guard once I move my arm from his hips. (I weigh 180lbs and stay mostly on my toes) Once I'm in my partners half guard, I have a hard time of getting my leg free, so I'll threaten submissions to get him to loosen his legs. Pass to side mount, and unless I move to mount, I quickly find myself back in half guard.

    Is there a way to prevent my partner from getting half guard without my hand by his hips, or is that the position I need to hold until I'm ready to pass or apply a sub?
  2. judojeff is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2013 3:48pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I am working from side 4 I always have something right on my parters hips, hand, elbow, knee, whatever. In a broader sense I try to immobilize my partners hips and shoulders and once I am nice and comfy in my pin I start to look for the sub.

    I have also found that moving back and forth from north south to side 4 can open up some good arm lock opportunities as well as keep you in a position that makes it difficult for your partner to shrimp to half guard.
  3. Bad Grappler is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2013 8:12pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We went over the north south today in my no gi class; two submissions, a transition to knee on belly, and a sweep.

    One of the guys in my gi class is able to shut down my shrimp to half guard without using a hand by my hips, which makes it hell on trying to escape and defend my arm. I'm hoping to be able to do that myself.
  4. judojeff is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2013 8:22pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Grappler View Post
    One of the guys in my gi class is able to shut down my shrimp to half guard without using a hand by my hips, which makes it hell on trying to escape and defend my arm. I'm hoping to be able to do that myself.
    Next time you roll with this guy and he shuts you down focus on feeling why you can't shrimp effectivly. Is his knee in your side? Does he have fanatstic weight distribution? Is he simply readjusting his position relative to yours when you start to shrimp? If you can not figure it out ask him after the roll if you have the opportunity.

    Some of my best break throughs have come from when I get stuck and focus on figuring out what it is about my partners technique that traps me.
  5. Bad Grappler is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2013 9:14am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the advise, I'll give it a shot on Tuesday.
  6. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2013 1:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From a sambo perspective, we hold cross-body pins (like sidemount) by flattening the hips all the way to the ground, and keeping contact between tori's chest and uke's floating ribs, with that point of contact on the nearside (south of the equator). As soon as you start to cross that center line, you open up the opportunity for uke to slide a knee in for half guard, or shrimp out to retain full guard or turtle.

    I tap experienced BJJ players with this technique fairly regularly, too. I also use it to slow down brown and black belts so I can start my own submission chains.
  7. goshinbudoJJ is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2013 1:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Judo, JJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I had some trouble with this when I first started as well. Best advice I got was to maintain tight/uncomfortable shoulder pressure on your opponent's face.

    The theory is that if your opponent cannot turn and face you, then he cannot shrimp to regain his guard.

    Another suggestion would be to use the arm that is around your opponent's head as a "hook" on the far side armpit as you cradle your opponent's head.

    Basically inserting your middle finger in the far armpit and lifting your opponent slightly off the mat. As you lift, you can begin to slide your knee under your opponents' near side shoulder. This, combined with the shoulder pressure described above, will make it very difficult to shrimp back to guard.

    Shrimping is most effective when your back is on the mat and when you can turn and face your opponent. Taking those two things away should help you maintain a strong side mount.
  8. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2013 4:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Grappler View Post
    Before I get into it, a little background on myself. When i was in my early 20's, I did MMA training around 20 hours a week for 9 months, mostly MT and no gi BJJ. Had a couple of fights, and then life set in and I stopped all training. Only training I did, was what the Marine Corps required me, so not very good training, but great conditioning.

    So, after a 6 year break, I'm sporting a shiny white belt and have been working my a$$ off for the past 6 weeks. The last few weeks, I've been training 2-3 90 minute classes with a gi, and 2-3 60 minute classes with no gi each week. So around 5-9 hours of class a week. Plus as much time each week watching Roy Dean and Pedro Sauer's video's for blue belt.

    When I roll, I rarely go for a submission, unless the guy is being an ass. I put myself in bottom side mount, or mount and work my way to top and then let them reverse me and do it again. I'll threaten a sub to get the guy to move if he's just camping, but I've been devoting most my time to working escapes and reversing. Training 4-6 times a week has me pretty sore, so I only go at about 70% unless I'm trying to escape a submission.

    NOW HERE'S MY PROBLEM!

    Once I get into top side mount, I have a very hard time of keeping my partner, even new white belts, from pulling half guard once I move my arm from his hips. (I weigh 180lbs and stay mostly on my toes) Once I'm in my partners half guard, I have a hard time of getting my leg free, so I'll threaten submissions to get him to loosen his legs. Pass to side mount, and unless I move to mount, I quickly find myself back in half guard.

    Is there a way to prevent my partner from getting half guard without my hand by his hips, or is that the position I need to hold until I'm ready to pass or apply a sub?
    The primary problem I see in "side mount" or "side control" (Yoko Shiho Gatame in Judo) is one of space and weight distribution. You say you are on your toes, which suggests that your weight may not be on your partner?

    You hips should be down. If they are shrimping in that easily, then you do not have enough weight on their chest. Bring your far knee (one closest to their hip) to their hip and keep it glued there to close off that space. Depending on how flexible you are, you can bring both your knees up as well.

    There are different hand/arm positions for the "side control" position.You can go under his head and grab the collar (I'm talking using the jacket now), grab the armpit, or put your arm over his head (far side) and pull towards to you to control the head. As already mentioned, you can use your shoulder on his face as well to control the head.

    I suggest you get some help from your instructor for specific help with your side control, as it's hard to give an excact answer without seeing you in action.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2013 5:29pm


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought "side control" was essentially mune-gatame, am I confoosed again?
  10. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2013 6:14pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    There are different hand/arm positions for the "side control" position.You can go under his head and grab the collar (I'm talking using the jacket now), grab the armpit, or put your arm over his head (far side) and pull towards to you to control the head. As already mentioned, you can use your shoulder on his face as well to control the head.
    This. I prefer to have one knee pushing into their hip and the other pushing into their armpit. Remember to keep your butt as low as possible. An elevated rear end sets up all kinds of escape opportunities.

    If I am sprawling (meaning either one or both legs are straight) my hips are as low to the ground as I can get them without actually touching it. My knees never touch the ground. This means the only points of contact with the mat or my opponent is my chest (on my opponent) and my toes (on the mat).

    The shoulder into their chin to the point that it turns their head is also a very useful tip. This is commonly referred to as the "shoulder of justice" in BJJ.

    One last note, if your arms are in the common position of the arm nearest their head under their neck (crossface) and the arm closest to their legs under their far arm, pull toward your own knees with them. Most beginners mistakenly try to pull up toward the ceiling/sky. Your side control will be much stronger if you pull with your arms toward your knees, parallel to the mat/ground.


    Take Blackmonk's advice as well. He has a truly crushing side control. I know from personal experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I thought "side control" was essentially mune-gatame, am I confoosed again?
    Side control is a generic term that encompasses a multitude of hand and leg/knee positions in BJJ.

    If you're talking about this,



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    then that is probably not what is being discussed here, although it would fall under the general heading of side control.

    This is the position most commonly used or referred to as side control in BJJ and the one I am describing above,


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