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  1. Mortal_wombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 12:49am


     Style: Doce Pares Escrima

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Effectiveness of the curving strike in real life

    I train in Cacoy Canete's style of Doce Pares escrima. We pride ourselves on the usage of 'Curving strikes', 'flicking strikes', "snap wrist strikes'. Apparently because no matter how you block a curving strike, you will hit your target(explanation by Cacoy himself at around 4:45). The downside is you sacrifice power for speed.


    My question is: Are the curving strikes such as the abaniko, any good for real life confrontations? Can you knock someone out with that or will you just annoy them? I've seen videos like the one below where they use curving strikes exclusively and they seem to be taking the shots pretty well. I have a short clip of my own teacher sparring full contact with only a helmet if anyone is interested. I've also seen videos of the dog brothers and no curving strikes are present. Then again maybe it's a stylistic thing.

  2. atheistmantis is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 2:56am

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     Style: Tang Soo Don't Retired

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I suggest you watch boxers and MMA fighters. Observe how they vary their strikes. It will take time to see the difference but it will come to you over time. In addition, I recommend you study at a boxing gym as well as your current MA training.
  3. Fuzzy is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 6:15am


     Style: FMA/MMA/HEMA noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Caveat before I get started:
    I'm a Doce Pares guy myself so I train curving strikes regularly and I do use them in my sparring both with armour and padded stick. I have not yet fought at a Dog Brothers gathering or similar live stick/limited rules event, though I hope to do so soon.

    I'd say you see more curving strikes in armoured (WEKAF/GSBA) competitions because you score by volume of strikes and that you don't see curving strikes in live stick/full contact/dog brothers fights much for 3 reasons:

    1. Power: generally these guys are looking for the big hit or the KO shot.
    2. Stick weight/length: Curving strikes become much more difficult with longer/heavier sticks such as are used by most people fighting at Dog Brothers gatherings and similar events.
    3. Grappling: Curving strikes are great for close range fighting WHEN YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO GRAPPLE. They work wonderfully when someone's just trying to check your hands/block your stick, but they're probably not going to be enough to stop someone from clinching up and feeding you knees and/or throwing you on your ass.

    Personally I don't really like the abanico at all but I do get a lot of utility out of what we call "Tumba" strikes which are curving strikes to the side of the body, particularly the backhand versions.

    Its also worth noting that Cacoy did have a number of full contact fights as well as grappling experience and he thinks curving strikes are a good idea.
  4. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 7:54am


     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Quote Originally Posted by atheistmantis View Post
    I suggest you watch boxers and MMA fighters. Observe how they vary their strikes. It will take time to see the difference but it will come to you over time. In addition, I recommend you study at a boxing gym as well as your current MA training.
    That's not really relevant mantis. The question was "Is X strike in this particular style effective in Y situation", so telling wombat to go do boxing isn't actually answering his question.

    I'm also a Doce Pares student but have only been training for a few months. From what I've seen my instructors and maybe a couple of the senior students could do some proper damage with a curving strike like the abanico, but my wrists are still too noodly to be able to pull that off.

    I've seen some of the guys use abanico as a distraction or set-up shot, much like a jab, before coming in with a knock-out strike, so it has some usefulness there. I sparred once with our female instructor, who is quite petite. She hit me in the head with a serious abanico and my helmet was ringing like a bell, so I can only guess at the problems a strike like that could cause someone if executed correctly and the opponent wasn't wearing headgear.
  5. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 8:09am


     Style: FMA

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    CGreat post!i was thinking about starting a similar topic. I'd love to see the video of your teacher applying the curved strikes in sparring. My thoughts are that curved strikes have their place, i like to use them while throwing some hip rotation to add some power. I'm also not convinced they are as unblockable as some claim, but I've never seen a specialist in curved strikes apply their skill in person. I think for real life application a linear power strike is better. If i have a stick and a large guy rushes at me,i may only get one or two strikes before i get tackled. Even sparring with a helmet a solid strike can effect the opponent, however a flick can be ignored. All the sparring videos I've seen that show curved strikes players seem to give and take a lot of hits, they don't respect the opponents power. I think curved strikes are a nice tool to keep in the arsenel but they only seem effective in a duel format.
  6. JohnKenner is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 10:12am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, Kenpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    I think for real life application a linear power strike is better. If i have a stick and a large guy rushes at me,i may only get one or two strikes before i get tackled. Even sparring with a helmet a solid strike can effect the opponent, however a flick can be ignored.
    QFT.

    If you watch the Dog Brothers Stickfighting videos - the first video is on "Power" - and the reason you stated is why. A flippy hit will not stop a strong and motivated opponent. I'm new to stickfighting, but this was the same lesson I learned when I started boxing - speed is great, but power is what you need to make your opponent respect you.
  7. Mortal_wombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 10:23am


     Style: Doce Pares Escrima

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are curving strikes exclusive to Doce Pares, or do other styles have them too? I don't think I've ever seen them in a Pekiti Tirsia demo before. I could be wrong.

    Here are a couple short clips of my teacher sparring. In the first video the sparring is all the way at the end

    Last edited by Mortal_wombat; 7/12/2013 10:26am at .
  8. Fuzzy is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 10:47am


     Style: FMA/MMA/HEMA noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great videos, I particularly enjoyed the inclusion of grappling in the second one, is this something you guys do regularly in sparring?

    For comparison between Doce Pares styles this is my and Katje's instructor early in his career:
  9. Mortal_wombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 10:58am


     Style: Doce Pares Escrima

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks fuzzy. Which one is your instrcutor? The one with the smiley face on his shorts has some insane skills. My teacher is the Grandson of Cacoy Canete and he has some training in YawYan and our particular style is called 'eskrido' which mixes judo, aikido and japanese jujutsu with our stickfighting. I've been training there for a few months and we've only done sparring with grappling included once it was during a really small class(about 4 people), twice if you include this video which was during an in-house tournament/exhibition.
  10. Fuzzy is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2013 11:20am


     Style: FMA/MMA/HEMA noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortal_wombat View Post
    Thanks fuzzy. Which one is your instrcutor? The one with the smiley face on his shorts has some insane skills. My teacher is the Grandson of Cacoy Canete and he has some training in YawYan and our particular style is called 'eskrido' which mixes judo, aikido and japanese jujutsu with our stickfighting. I've been training there for a few months and we've only done sparring with grappling included once it was during a really small class(about 4 people), twice if you include this video which was during an in-house tournament/exhibition.
    My instructor's the guy in the smiley face pants.

    Interestingly he's a Yaw-Yan guy as well, though his Doce Pares comes via Diony Canete rather than Cacoy.

    Its interesting to watch the interaction between the curving strikes and the takedowns from your instructor, he seems to be using them as a transition/entry as he's closing the range, I guess that's the Eskrido coming into play.
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