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  1. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 3:43pm


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    This really leaves us with two main options for better protecting us from brain damage - either a) increase the mass of the head with heavy headgear, or b) provide stiffer support between the head and the body so a punch ends up knocking your whole body back instead of just your head.
    Like a light weight device that connects the head to the shoulders and acts akin to a 'reverse seatbelt' in that when the head moves it does so freely but when the head is snapped in a direction quickly the device 'locks' the head to the body and the impact is shifted through the body as a whole?

    This may sound like a really stupid question - but does a neck brace reduce brain damage? Or am I not following properly.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 4:14pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoscant View Post
    You would need a substance that could contract and disperse rapidly for absorbing impact while allowing it to expand again for the next impact. Almost a 'second' helmet on top of the first that could shift with the impact direction.
    I wonder if you start with something like this:

    Then affix the face cage to the mask, offset forward just a bit, with springed channels along the sides of the head that allow the shield to compress back a bit (maybe an inch or so, with rather rigid springs). Such a modification would only help against punches to the front of the face though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoscant View Post
    This may sound like a really stupid question - but does a neck brace reduce brain damage? Or am I not following properly.
    IDK about brain damage, but in law enforcement training and zealous RBSD training where Redman/bulletman suits are used, cervical collars are often worn, because having everyone beat on you full power in padding can still be hard on the neck.

    On the other hand, it seems that a cervical collar that keeps your neck from moving, while protecting the neck, may make impact to the head more pronounced, since the energy that would go into snapping the head back still needs to go somewhere. I've heard that the whipping of the head when its snapped back actually causes the brain to shake around more, making brain damage/concussion more likely. So I'm really not sure if a neck brace would help or hurt the head during impact. It'd most likely help the neck, though.
  3. Dr_Awesome is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 4:56pm


     Style: Hapkido

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoscant View Post
    Like a light weight device that connects the head to the shoulders and acts akin to a 'reverse seatbelt' in that when the head moves it does so freely but when the head is snapped in a direction quickly the device 'locks' the head to the body and the impact is shifted through the body as a whole?

    This may sound like a really stupid question - but does a neck brace reduce brain damage? Or am I not following properly.
    Sounds like a good idea, but designing something like that definitely will not be easy. As for the neck brace, I really don't know. I feel like there are too many "what if"s, which usually means you just have to test it and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I wonder if you start with something like this:
    Then affix the face cage to the mask, offset forward just a bit, with springed channels along the sides of the head that allow the shield to compress back a bit (maybe an inch or so, with rather rigid springs). Such a modification would only help against punches to the front of the face though.

    IDK about brain damage, but in law enforcement training and zealous RBSD training where Redman/bulletman suits are used, cervical collars are often worn, because having everyone beat on you full power in padding can still be hard on the neck.
    Yea... it seems like something could be done to give you rigidity when you need it, but it seems like solving this problem gets complicated very quickly.

    That's interesting about the cervical collars... makes me wonder if supporting the neck ultimately helps or hurts.
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 5:11pm

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    When I was teaching "padded attacker"-style self defense courses, I designed an impact suit along those lines; the helmet and neck brace/pad was build into the shoulder protection and the whole assembly was then affixed to the torso pad, so effectively, a shot to the helmet was dispersed right through the torso.

    The practical downside was that you become ridiculously top-heavy and prone to being knocked down easily, but I never had my bell rung in that suit; full-power knees to the face just knocked me flat on my back, without even so much as a mild headache afterwards.
  5. Dr_Awesome is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 5:25pm


     Style: Hapkido

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    When I was teaching "padded attacker"-style self defense courses, I designed an impact suit along those lines; the helmet and neck brace/pad was build into the shoulder protection and the whole assembly was then affixed to the torso pad, so effectively, a shot to the helmet was dispersed right through the torso.

    The practical downside was that you become ridiculously top-heavy and prone to being knocked down easily, but I never had my bell rung in that suit; full-power knees to the face just knocked me flat on my back, without even so much as a mild headache afterwards.
    That is awesome. Considering momentum is still conserved, just passed to your body, can I assume a right cross was enough to put you on your heels, if not on the floor? Also, did it put strain on your lower back?

    I assume your mobility was impaired to a frustrating degree as well?
  6. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 5:53pm

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    I'm not sure if this answers any of your questions, but the man responsible may have some engineering solutions RE: mitigating the head and neck trauma from heavy blows.

    For your consideration:

  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 6:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    That is awesome. Considering momentum is still conserved, just passed to your body, can I assume a right cross was enough to put you on your heels, if not on the floor? Also, did it put strain on your lower back?

    I assume your mobility was impaired to a frustrating degree as well?
    I didn't teach right crosses as basic self defense - the closest technique would be a straight palm-heel shot into the face, which (IIRC) did occasionally knock me flat on my back.

    I think that my lower back would have eventually been strained except that I developed a knack of spontaneously "rolling" with heavy hits, which undoubtedly helped to further disperse the momentum.

    I was younger and more spry then, but yes, the suit was still quite awkward to move in; the compromise, as always, was between mobility and protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    I'm not sure if this answers any of your questions, but the man responsible may have some engineering solutions RE: mitigating the head and neck trauma from heavy blows.

    For your consideration:

    Yep - when I first saw Project Grizzly, some of the early prototype bear armor reminded me of my own impact suits.
  8. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 6:47pm


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I've heard that the whipping of the head when its snapped back actually causes the brain to shake around more, making brain damage/concussion more likely. So I'm really not sure if a neck brace would help or hurt the head during impact. It'd most likely help the neck, though.


    Now I'm not a doctor; I'll leave that for Dr Awesome. But the answer to this I might be able to help with.

    The brain sits in fluid inside the skull - kind of like free floating ball if you will. As the skull moves around the brain shifts freely.

    Concussion occurs when the impact force on the skull is enough so that the transfer of force pushes the brain into the skull (dura matter? I think) and causes damage to sections of the brain. Depending on where it hit's you're going to get varying results of damage and side effects.

    For instance a vicious blow to the front of the head causes two things to happen. Because energy is bi directional the force to the front of the head would first cause the brain to hit the frontal part of the skull resulting in several possible issues like the inability to think clearly. Then on return or if the head hits something like the floor the brain then hits the back of the skull causing loss of conscious etc.

    A strike to the side of the head however causes the brain to hit the side of the skull differently again; and can cause problems with balance or limb control. This can kind of be seen when you watch knockouts in fights. When they go down to a hook they go limp and wobbly. Where as when they get knocked out with a strong straight they kind of 'flash out' like they are ok then everything just switches off.

    Preventing concussive forces in the head requires that energy be transfer around the head rather than through it; and any force that is applied has an extended exit point as opposed to being exerted fully on the head itself. (which is why you still get rocked while wearing a helmet but not so much when wearing a neck brace which allows energy to continue through the brace and into the body which is much more suitable for taking the force).

    At least - that's the way I understand it. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 6:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boydy83 View Post
    In regards to boxing/Kickboxing you would think head gear would increase the brain damage factor as in theory one could take more shots to the head wearing one then if they didnt...
    Many years ago I read a paper written by a brain surgeon who was at least semi-seriously proposing a return to bare knuckle boxing rules as a way to reduce brain injuries among boxers.

    As I recall, his argument was that without gloves or head protection fighters would be expected to give and receive fewer punches to the skull due to their hands giving out. They would also have shorter boxing careers (again, re. cumulative damage to their hands) and, with the option of standing grappling and throwing from the clinch, there would be fewer punches thrown per round.
  10. Ignoscant is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2013 7:13pm


     Style: Kickboxing/MuaiThai (new)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Many years ago I read a paper written by a brain surgeon who was at least semi-seriously proposing a return to bare knuckle boxing rules as a way to reduce brain injuries among boxers.

    As I recall, his argument was that without gloves or head protection fighters would be expected to give and receive fewer punches to the skull due to their hands giving out. They would also have shorter boxing careers (again, re. cumulative damage to their hands) and, with the option of standing grappling and throwing from the clinch, there would be fewer punches thrown per round.
    I don't have numbers but I think you'll find that UFC fighters will have a lower rate of brain damage than boxing.
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