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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 11:38am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Auszi View Post
    Thank you for all the feedback.

    To give you some context, I read Kesting's article, tried it at training and asked my coach (Brown belt) about it. He said it's a bit of a dead end but he also has this philosophy, that test what he says to see if it's wrong, he doesn't expect to be right about all things.

    Thinking about it in my head, I can't shake the feeling that there is a lot I could do from there, North South is one of my go to positions so securing Kesa is an easy proposition, and the opportunity comes up a lot.

    I like to add things to my game that others aren't necessarily thinking about, but that said I don't want to be gimmicky, other reading showed that there is a lot of back and forth about Kesa's effectiveness, basically summarised as "it's a dead end (BJJ guys) vs no it's actually very good if you practice it enough (Usually Judo guys, and BJJers who have been caught in it by Judo guys)"

    I was trying to transfer to a North South choke but that seems too difficult but it feels like I could transfer to mount quite easily?

    In any case from what is written I think I am going to have crack at using it more and it's associated variations, any material or links that you can provide would be great.
    I don't know of any particular material online. I learned what I know from a couple of specific teachers who were quite old school, and I've only seen some of the transitions to subs in print. That doesn't mean they dont' exist online, you will have do do some searching. You could post what you find hear for discussion, I think that would be useful.

    In any case, my point of view is that it's good to know a basic set of transitions from position to position, how to maintain top control (pinning, essentially). Then you can work on taking advantage of opportunities for submissions that arise from uke attempt to escape. In Judo, you have to escape the pin or you lose (in competition), so things can get a bit more desperate than perhaps in BJJ, and thus open up more chances to nail uke (with an armbar or choke in Judo).

    Basics of Hon Kesa Gatame

    Last edited by BKR; 7/01/2013 11:42am at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 11:45am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    I'd like to point something out for the purpose of adding some perspective to the discussion. There are three members who made direct or indirect statements that supported adding/studying the Hon Kesa Getame position, BKR, Omega and myself.

    Of these three, I have the least amount of grappling experience at 13 years of BJJ. Next is the former pro fighter Omega, who has 20+ years of grappling experience. Finally, BKR has over 30 years of experience during which time he trained with quite a few national or world class level competitors. Not to mention his Judo instructor of many years who was also a national level competitor if I recall correctly.

    Contrast that with those who stated that the position is a "dead end". PSB has 5-7 years of experience, or McClaw's, 3-4 years.

    I'm not trying to be a dick (although honestly, it comes naturally), I'm merely adding perspective on the experience level of those who are commenting in this thread. At least, those whose experience with whom I am familiar.
    You will either mellow with age or continue to be more of a dick and get better at it!

    I try to learn from everyone, it's not a bad attitude to have.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 11:48am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Do you guys use finish from Kesa or is it used more to get control and transition to a more dominant position?
    I know that I get arm bared plenty enough while in it but that can simply because I suck more than the position being a good finishing position.
    I use it if that is what I can get. In Judo, it's easy to end up in Hon Kesa Gatame because of the normal gripping configuration and throwing, although with practice you can end up in almost any position quickly.

    In normal "rolling", though, it's more a matter of taking advantage of what you are presented with or have manipulated your opponent/training partner into and going from there.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 12:02pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    I'm parroting what I've been told by higher up instructors in my association (and seen Marcelo Garcia say on video), not making it up.

    Judo doesn't have the same cost-benefit ratios as BJJ. It's not a question of "can BJJ black belts be held in kesa", of course they can, it's a question of the opportunity cost of taking the position and the training time you have to invest versus working on other things. Maybe once I have 30 years in I'll have had time to become expert with a huge breadth of technique and be super ace at teaching the position, but if a white belt asks me "should I work a bunch on this hold" I'm still going to suggest that unless he wants to play wrestling or Judo, there are better uses of his time.
    It's not a matter of spending a whole bunch of time, really, however, I'd defer to high level BJJ teachers on what is best to teach in BJJ.

    If there is not a lot of opportunity, then it won't take much time to learn the possibilities and the basics of the position.

    Your point is noted though, as for example, I don't spend a lot of time going over endless variations of Mae Sankaku Jime (the normal "front" triangle form guard ), because of the same reasons. However, I have seen the benefit of studying it to my students directly in terms of greater awareness of possibilities. I had taught the Yoko (side) triangle turtle turning stuff for quite a while, and when they got exposed to the front triangle via BJJ, they actually started doing triangles from all sorts of positions.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. Auszi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2013 3:24am


     Style: BJJ Beginner

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So I have been hunting for this when I am rolling, it's actually a fun position to go for.

    I have found though that I end up more often than not with my arm under their far arm rather than under their head (Hon?).

    I found these videos from a youtube search.



    I used my rear leg to push my weight onto the uke(Can I use this word? it's convenient) and he tapped just from the pressure, you could hear his breathing change immediately.



    I liked this video for the detail about bringing the uke's arm up under your armpit and holding with your arm pressure not with your hand on the elbow.

    Though he does say to not lift off the back leg, which is different to Erik's instruction.




    And this one also seemed like it was useful material.
  6. 02-6611-0142-1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2013 7:18am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe hon kesa gatame exists because it's a good and natural landing position for throws. On a purely groundfighting level it's useful but sub-optimal. I go there a lot myself because I enjoy it and I get some taps there, but I wouldn't risk it in a competition setting. The few times I've had skilled Judokas on top of me in this position, it felt like they were holding their weight a little differently to a BJJ player: They could put more pressure on me and make it extremely difficult to escape, but they'd also have more trouble going for submissions with that particular pressure style. So you either go for immobilization and find it difficult to finish, or you go for submissions and open yourself up for the back take.

    So my answer is "train it if you like throws."

    I only have four or five years grappling experience so I will defer to anybody more experienced than myself.
  7. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 7:42am


     Style: Judo-Brown

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Auszi View Post
    Hi all,

    I get Stephan Kesting's mail outs and he talks about Kesa Gatame being underutilized in BJJ.

    What do the rest of you think?

    If you agree what are some good ways to go in terms of making it a part of my game?
    I think Kesa Gatame is underutilized in BJJ. At the the same time I think we can all agree that generally speaking the less your hips are facing your opponent, and the more your back is turned towards your opponent, the more difficult it is to control/attack(i.e. kesa, reverse half guard, reverse mount, reverse KOB). That simply means you will have to put more time in to avoid having your back taken then say regular side control. But that's no reason not to train it. Just be mindful of the risk/reward ratio.

    I think it is important to be as well rounded as you can be. You will hear guys like marcelo say that it's not ideal, but Marcelo does not like arm bars, or head and arm chokes either. And he doesn't have to, he's marcelo. Us normal folks need everything submission/position that we can get.

    One question though, how much do you weigh? Generally speaking the contemporary wisdom in BJJ is that lighter you are the less effective the top game is in general. (i would love to see a study on the number of wins that are by hold down in high level judo by the lightest weight classes) Guys like Dan Faggella preach that statistically speaking, if you are a light weight you should be focusing on back takes and when possible avoid pinning positions. After my measly 13 years in BJJ I can say my experiences generally matches his statistics (for bjj).
  8. Auszi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2013 8:08am


     Style: BJJ Beginner

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    One question though, how much do you weigh? Generally speaking the contemporary wisdom in BJJ is that lighter you are the less effective the top game is in general. (i would love to see a study on the number of wins that are by hold down in high level judo by the lightest weight classes) Guys like Dan Faggella preach that statistically speaking, if you are a light weight you should be focusing on back takes and when possible avoid pinning positions. After my measly 13 years in BJJ I can say my experiences generally matches his statistics (for bjj).
    I am now 100kg (Ideal weight 88 - 90)
  9. Sang is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 6:08am


     Style: MMA, Yoga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tapped multiple times to this last week as a BJJ bluebelt. Maybe at the higher belt levels everyone knows the perfect counter to this hold but i sure as hell don't.

    It was worse than any knee on belly I've experienced, i tried slowing down my breathing and then my coach shifted his weight again and the pressure went up further.
    "Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
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  10. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2013 11:37am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, to kick my 2 cents in on this.

    Hon Kesa SEEMS to be less option rich. You have a couple of armlocks and a really solid pin available to you, but not much else. I've found that guys who have worked the position a lot (Judo blackbelts I've rolled with) will more or less shatter your rib cage just by sitting there, but once you get used to the pressure and realize that their have relatively few options to attack with it gets a lot easier to deal with the position and work to take the back. Because you have MORE TIME to work your way to the back under BJJ rules I think it lowers the value of the very strong pin that you get from Hon Kesa.
    It's still a devestatingly powerful position, but it is not AS POWERFUL in BJJ as it is in Judo because of the rules difference. I think it regains some of that power in MMA or in any venue where strikes are allowed because it gives you a great opportunity to punch the **** out of your opponent.

    For BJJ I have found that reverse Kesa gives you a lot of the same benefits of hon kesa, but you have transition options that are more valuable in BJJ. It's an easier transition to mount or KoB, and it gives you most of the same armlock attacks that hon kesa does. It's a weaker pin in my experience, but that may just be because the people who are the best at pinning have spent more time in hon kesa than in reverse.

    So, Kesa as a generalized position is super strong and worth investing time in, but keep in mind what situation you are training for and try to focus your time on the variant that best fits your ruleset.
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