7/01/2013 11:38am, #31
In any case, my point of view is that it's good to know a basic set of transitions from position to position, how to maintain top control (pinning, essentially). Then you can work on taking advantage of opportunities for submissions that arise from uke attempt to escape. In Judo, you have to escape the pin or you lose (in competition), so things can get a bit more desperate than perhaps in BJJ, and thus open up more chances to nail uke (with an armbar or choke in Judo).
Basics of Hon Kesa Gatame
Last edited by BKR; 7/01/2013 11:42am at .Falling for Judo since 1980
7/01/2013 11:45am, #32
7/01/2013 11:48am, #33
In normal "rolling", though, it's more a matter of taking advantage of what you are presented with or have manipulated your opponent/training partner into and going from there.Falling for Judo since 1980
7/01/2013 12:02pm, #34
If there is not a lot of opportunity, then it won't take much time to learn the possibilities and the basics of the position.
Your point is noted though, as for example, I don't spend a lot of time going over endless variations of Mae Sankaku Jime (the normal "front" triangle form guard ), because of the same reasons. However, I have seen the benefit of studying it to my students directly in terms of greater awareness of possibilities. I had taught the Yoko (side) triangle turtle turning stuff for quite a while, and when they got exposed to the front triangle via BJJ, they actually started doing triangles from all sorts of positions.
BenFalling for Judo since 1980
7/07/2013 3:24am, #35
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
So I have been hunting for this when I am rolling, it's actually a fun position to go for.
I have found though that I end up more often than not with my arm under their far arm rather than under their head (Hon?).
I found these videos from a youtube search.
I used my rear leg to push my weight onto the uke(Can I use this word? it's convenient) and he tapped just from the pressure, you could hear his breathing change immediately.
I liked this video for the detail about bringing the uke's arm up under your armpit and holding with your arm pressure not with your hand on the elbow.
Though he does say to not lift off the back leg, which is different to Erik's instruction.
And this one also seemed like it was useful material.
7/28/2013 7:18am, #36
- Join Date
- May 2009
I believe hon kesa gatame exists because it's a good and natural landing position for throws. On a purely groundfighting level it's useful but sub-optimal. I go there a lot myself because I enjoy it and I get some taps there, but I wouldn't risk it in a competition setting. The few times I've had skilled Judokas on top of me in this position, it felt like they were holding their weight a little differently to a BJJ player: They could put more pressure on me and make it extremely difficult to escape, but they'd also have more trouble going for submissions with that particular pressure style. So you either go for immobilization and find it difficult to finish, or you go for submissions and open yourself up for the back take.
So my answer is "train it if you like throws."
I only have four or five years grappling experience so I will defer to anybody more experienced than myself.
7/29/2013 7:42am, #37
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
I think it is important to be as well rounded as you can be. You will hear guys like marcelo say that it's not ideal, but Marcelo does not like arm bars, or head and arm chokes either. And he doesn't have to, he's marcelo. Us normal folks need everything submission/position that we can get.
One question though, how much do you weigh? Generally speaking the contemporary wisdom in BJJ is that lighter you are the less effective the top game is in general. (i would love to see a study on the number of wins that are by hold down in high level judo by the lightest weight classes) Guys like Dan Faggella preach that statistically speaking, if you are a light weight you should be focusing on back takes and when possible avoid pinning positions. After my measly 13 years in BJJ I can say my experiences generally matches his statistics (for bjj).
7/29/2013 8:08am, #38
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
7/30/2013 6:08am, #39
I tapped multiple times to this last week as a BJJ bluebelt. Maybe at the higher belt levels everyone knows the perfect counter to this hold but i sure as hell don't.
It was worse than any knee on belly I've experienced, i tried slowing down my breathing and then my coach shifted his weight again and the pressure went up further."Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting into position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit."
7/30/2013 11:37am, #40
So, to kick my 2 cents in on this.
Hon Kesa SEEMS to be less option rich. You have a couple of armlocks and a really solid pin available to you, but not much else. I've found that guys who have worked the position a lot (Judo blackbelts I've rolled with) will more or less shatter your rib cage just by sitting there, but once you get used to the pressure and realize that their have relatively few options to attack with it gets a lot easier to deal with the position and work to take the back. Because you have MORE TIME to work your way to the back under BJJ rules I think it lowers the value of the very strong pin that you get from Hon Kesa.
It's still a devestatingly powerful position, but it is not AS POWERFUL in BJJ as it is in Judo because of the rules difference. I think it regains some of that power in MMA or in any venue where strikes are allowed because it gives you a great opportunity to punch the **** out of your opponent.
For BJJ I have found that reverse Kesa gives you a lot of the same benefits of hon kesa, but you have transition options that are more valuable in BJJ. It's an easier transition to mount or KoB, and it gives you most of the same armlock attacks that hon kesa does. It's a weaker pin in my experience, but that may just be because the people who are the best at pinning have spent more time in hon kesa than in reverse.
So, Kesa as a generalized position is super strong and worth investing time in, but keep in mind what situation you are training for and try to focus your time on the variant that best fits your ruleset.