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  1. #21

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you for all the feedback.

    To give you some context, I read Kesting's article, tried it at training and asked my coach (Brown belt) about it. He said it's a bit of a dead end but he also has this philosophy, that test what he says to see if it's wrong, he doesn't expect to be right about all things.

    Thinking about it in my head, I can't shake the feeling that there is a lot I could do from there, North South is one of my go to positions so securing Kesa is an easy proposition, and the opportunity comes up a lot.

    I like to add things to my game that others aren't necessarily thinking about, but that said I don't want to be gimmicky, other reading showed that there is a lot of back and forth about Kesa's effectiveness, basically summarised as "it's a dead end (BJJ guys) vs no it's actually very good if you practice it enough (Usually Judo guys, and BJJers who have been caught in it by Judo guys)"

    I was trying to transfer to a North South choke but that seems too difficult but it feels like I could transfer to mount quite easily?

    In any case from what is written I think I am going to have crack at using it more and it's associated variations, any material or links that you can provide would be great.

  2. #22
    jnp's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd like to point something out for the purpose of adding some perspective to the discussion. There are three members who made direct or indirect statements that supported adding/studying the Hon Kesa Getame position, BKR, Omega and myself.

    Of these three, I have the least amount of grappling experience at 13 years of BJJ. Next is the former pro fighter Omega, who has 20+ years of grappling experience. Finally, BKR has over 30 years of experience during which time he trained with quite a few national or world class level competitors. Not to mention his Judo instructor of many years who was also a national level competitor if I recall correctly.

    Contrast that with those who stated that the position is a "dead end". PSB has 5-7 years of experience, or McClaw's, 3-4 years.

    I'm not trying to be a dick (although honestly, it comes naturally), I'm merely adding perspective on the experience level of those who are commenting in this thread. At least, those whose experience with whom I am familiar.

  3. #23

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your such a dick JNP. (Just kidding:)

  4. #24

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I might add, that though the idea of trying to do or train something unusual or not common can be a bit of a red flag, super flying flagpole attack, I definitely have taken into consideration the posters experience when making a decision, trying to avoid a conformation bias.

  5. #25
    IMightBeWrong's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I brought it over from the year I spent practicing Judo and even though I'm training no gi I haven't had my back taken using it in rolling so far. With that said, I haven't learned much that I can actually do from it in terms of subs. I feel like I can keep it for longer than I can side control, though, so I tend to use it to stall while my n00b ass tries to think of things to go for.
    "Intelligence is nothing more than discussing things with others. Limitless wisdom comes of this." - 山本 常朝

  6. #26
    goodlun's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you guys use finish from Kesa or is it used more to get control and transition to a more dominant position?
    I know that I get arm bared plenty enough while in it but that can simply because I suck more than the position being a good finishing position.

  7. #27
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Of these three, I have the least amount of grappling experience at 13 years of BJJ. Next is the former pro fighter Omega, who has 20+ years of grappling experience. Finally, BKR has over 30 years of experience during which time he trained with quite a few national or world class level competitors. Not to mention his Judo instructor of many years who was also a national level competitor if I recall correctly.

    Contrast that with those who stated that the position is a "dead end". PSB has 5-7 years of experience, or McClaw's, 3-4 years.

    I'm not trying to be a dick (although honestly, it comes naturally), I'm merely adding perspective on the experience level of those who are commenting in this thread. At least, those whose experience with whom I am familiar.
    I'm parroting what I've been told by higher up instructors in my association (and seen Marcelo Garcia say on video), not making it up.

    Judo doesn't have the same cost-benefit ratios as BJJ. It's not a question of "can BJJ black belts be held in kesa", of course they can, it's a question of the opportunity cost of taking the position and the training time you have to invest versus working on other things. Maybe once I have 30 years in I'll have had time to become expert with a huge breadth of technique and be super ace at teaching the position, but if a white belt asks me "should I work a bunch on this hold" I'm still going to suggest that unless he wants to play wrestling or Judo, there are better uses of his time.

  8. #28

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A good kesa is killer. You can really destroy his breathing and attack all kinds of things from it. Anytime I get my back taken (never) or when I get swept (sometimes) it is because I fucked up.

    I love it, even as a smaller guy I can make my weight felt really well from there.

  9. #29

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @Auszi what kind of takedown do you have. KG from a hip wheel or osoto-gari seem to flow so naturally for me[/QUOTE]

    This isn't from a takedown, it is just from passing guard, I just find the opportunity to take Kesa is there a lot.

  10. #30
    danno's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say that you should have a solid understanding of Kesa Gatame variations, transitions, submissions and escapes from there, no matter what you think of the position. Hon is good for the pin, and there are a couple of solid submissions possible from there.

    If you develop a good Kesa, it'll only benefit your training partners. They'll develop a good defense in response. Then you might eventually find it's sometimes tricky to transition from Hon, which is the only reason some describe it as a "dead end".

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