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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    It's a stable pin, but a bit of a dead end positionally if the guy doesn't fall for the subs from there. That said, I've seen good BJJ guys who aren't that familiar with it get caught out, YMMV.
    No, it's not a dead end positionally at all. It's possible to transition to multiple other pins.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

  2. #12
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    No, it's not a dead end positionally at all. It's possible to transition to multiple other pins.
    Possible, but not necessarily super high percentage against equally skilled opposition compared to the other options. It's uncommon in high level BJJ for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Possible, but not necessarily super high percentage against equally skilled opposition compared to the other options. It's uncommon in high level BJJ for a reason.

    I'm with BKR on this one.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Possible, but not necessarily super high percentage against equally skilled opposition compared to the other options. It's uncommon in high level BJJ for a reason.
    No, not possibly, they exist and work. Nothing works all the time against every/anyone, not side control, not mount, etc etc. Talking elite level BJJ is another world from you and me, just as would be Judo, boxing, wrestling, etc.

    I'm bet those high level BJJ guys are pretty familiar with the position and it's variations as a matter of course.

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    Back to the original post, yes, I think it's worth "developing". If you want to be a well rounded grappler, focusing narrowly on "high percentage" "techniques" is not in my opinion the way to train effecitively, especially for beginners/novices/. In fact, that is typically a beginners approach to learning martial arts...what works ALL the time, coach, I want to learn that!

    Become a expert at Kesa Gatame and all it's variations and transitions to other positions and submissions, perhaps not, but it should be something everyone has some familiarity with. Especially escaping/reversing it.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

  6. #16
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    No, not possibly, they exist and work.
    I said"possible" as in "Yes, it is possible". Not "possibly", as you seem to have read it.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Nothing works all the time against every/anyone, not side control, not mount, etc etc. Talking elite level BJJ is another world from you and me, just as would be Judo, boxing, wrestling, etc.
    It doesn't exist in the games of guys at the top level because, unlike the mount or normal side control, hon kesa is not very efficient, mostly, for the goals of the sport. If someone says "do you think it's worth making a lot of effort to put this thing in my game for BJJ" the answer has got to be "not really, unless you know something all the good guys don't".
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I'm bet those high level BJJ guys are pretty familiar with the position and it's variations as a matter of course.
    Familiar, yes, work specifically to make it part of their game? Not really, for the reasons above.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    I said"possible" as in "Yes, it is possible". Not "possibly", as you seem to have read it.
    Very possibly so!

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    It doesn't exist in the games of guys at the top level because, unlike the mount or normal side control, hon kesa is not very efficient, mostly, for the goals of the sport.
    Hon Kesa Gatame is the beginning..like learning O Gosh. No, one would not build ones judo "game" around O Goshi, just to head you off at the pass on that one. Kesa Gatame is a principle, as well as a specific technique, and the leg position and method of pinning are important to understand and be able to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    If someone says "do you think it's worth making a lot of effort to put this thing in my game for BJJ" the answer has got to be "not really, unless you know something all the good guys don't". Familiar, yes, work specifically to make it part of their game? Not really, for the reasons above.
    We may both be assuming what the OP meant by his question. I didn't interpret it the way you wrote above. Making something a part of his "game" does not equal what you wrote, in my mind at least. So maybe the OP can clarify his intent.

    In any case, I think that Kesa Gatame and it's variations deserves serious study by grapplers of of any ilk, particularly gi grappling, as that is what I'm obviously most familiar with. How far one takes that depends on training resources and purpose.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I use the kuzure version with side control and Kob pretty regularly.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    I use the kuzure version with side control and Kob pretty regularly.
    Kuzure is a different matter, totally central, everyone uses it. Kestings article is about hon.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Kuzure is a different matter, totally central, everyone uses it. Kestings article is about hon.
    Kuzure is often considered in Judo more difficult to learn and become proficient at,mainly I think because of the lack of head control...squeezing the **** out of uke head being the primary understanding of Kesa Gatame by a lot (dare I say most?) judoka, especially kids (go figure).

    So Hon Kesa Gatame ("hon" means "normal" or something similar for all you non-judoka out there) is easier to do at first (squeeze the head).

    A note about Judo terminology...anything other than "Hon Kesa Gatame" that involves the "kesa" leg position and some sort of upper body control is considered "kuzure" (broken/modified" Kesa Gatame. This included things like Makura Kesa Gatame (Pillow), Ushiro/Ura Kesa Gatame), etc.

    The version of Kuzure Kesa Gatame that PSB is speaking is the version of Kuzure Kesa Gatame illustrated in the Katame No Kata of Judo, the katame waza (choke/pin/armbar plus one lower body submission) kata of Judo.

    Kuzure as defined (katame no kata version) IS a versatile hold for sure. I prefer it to the Hon variation as well, although I won't pass up Hon Kesa if offered. I know of (but cannot necessarily do anymore) 6 or 7 submissions from the Hon position, depending on how uke tries to escape. I am sure there are more.

    I've rolled with good BJJ guys, and it's the truth that holding them in Kesa Gatame is very difficult if not impossible to do for very long. The same goes for judoka who are good on the ground. That includes one black belt (BJJ)...but I was able to transition and maintain control for a while at least. And that's the nature of the "game", be it Judo or BJJ.

    So I say to the OP, try and see that is the only way to find out. You will learn something useful, even if you can't pin Roger Gracie with it...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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