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  1. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 1:53pm

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    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    tl;dr: The US are a criminal ****-hole and I am glad to live in Europe!
    Ignoring your trolling, the thing to remember is that Pandora's box has already been opened in the U.S. A significant portion of the criminal population either possesses or has access to firearms. So depriving law abiding citizens of the right to carry firearms simply means we'll be unarmed when the bad guy with a gun comes along. A fact that is often overlooked by cities and stated with more stringent gun control.

    Also, staff member Scrapper dug a little deeper into the gun control issue concerning Europe versus the U.S. Some of the Wikipedia statistics is comparing apples to oranges.

    Check out the thread: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...gun+statistics
  2. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:06pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Can you get a citation for this comment? Is it a long term, yearly, or an average study?

    Also, clarify your statement. You get angry when people don't read it using your personal logic. Obviously, I hope, you aren't talking about "kill you" as in Drunk driving deaths or an OD.
    "Double" was obviously an guesstimation and yes for an serious discussion there was too much ambiguity but I donít really expect one in this thread.
    For firearm related only, it has been shown in my post before.
    As for the general homicide rate in the US this is 4.8 the suicide rate 12.0 per 100 000 population. So suicide is clearly a much bigger problem than murder. So what I said is plausible for both, firearm only and general murder rate vs suicide rate.

    Of course if one would like to seriously discuss the topic there would be a need to crawl actual studies and not just Wikipedia.
  3. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:13pm


     Style: Escrima n00b

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good point, once guns are in common circulation it's nigh-on impossible to take them out again. The only people who would be hurt are law-abiding citizens.

    They did a gun amnesty drive in South Africa a while back, where you could turn in your illegal firearms without penalty for several months. There were a lot of guns handed in, but they were overwhelmingly from working to middle class house-owning people who didn't have the time/money to get their gun licenses and knew that if they shot someone in their homes with them it could still get them into trouble. It didn't make a whit of difference to the underclasses, as they have no fixed address, often no ID number, and the justice and penal system are so corrupt that they could buy their way to an early release or help run criminal operations from inside. That's if they got sent away at all, due to the massive prison overcrowding problem.

    I'm honestly not really a fan of guns, but perhaps that's because if I ever catch sight of one I'm usually on the wrong end of it. Nonetheless, I've been trying to convince my parents to get a gun exactly because of stuff like what happened in that video. My mom's just turned 50 and she's home alone most of the time, and regardless of her feeling on guns if someone's going to break into the house with one I damn well want her to have one too!

    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Of course if one would like to seriously discuss the topic there would be a need to crawl actual studies and not just Wikipedia.
    I wouldn't worry about that, IiF is nothing if not thorough.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:19pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    "Double" was obviously an guesstimation and yes for an serious discussion there was too much ambiguity but I donít really expect one in this thread.
    For firearm related only, it has been shown in my post before.
    As for the general homicide rate in the US this is 4.8 the suicide rate 12.0 per 100 000 population. So suicide is clearly a much bigger problem than murder. So what I said is plausible for both, firearm only and general murder rate vs suicide rate.
    Okay, so you won't cite your sources, but yelled at Devil to do so. Gotcha. Do you notice what you keeping doing? Someone addresses your point, or asks you a question, then you fundamentally shift the discussion.

    Of course if one would like to seriously discuss the topic there would be a need to crawl actual studies and not just Wikipedia.
    If we were to SERIOUSLY discuss the topic, you'd have to quit tailoring your argument to fit your personal logic.

    Here, let me explain why DCS made his comment. You never address a question, but you sure point out when people don't. You get mad when people "supposedly" put words in your mouth, but you have done that on at least 3 occasions. Now, you post a cartoon about causation not realizing you are that cartoon.

    As I pointed out, when you began this derail, you make a point, fundamentally shift it and then argue your newly formed point. I asked you to clarify what you meant about double homicides and suicide deaths; it is a guess, So, to cover your error, you decide to talk about suicide being a bigger problem than homicide. No one is really going to argue homicide is bad and suicide is worse.
    So, now, you have shifted the talk from your erroneous guess, which concerned gun homicides vs. gun suicides, to the generality of homicides vs suicides.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 6/27/2013 2:27pm at .
  5. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:22pm


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    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Criminals always find ways to get guns. This is not specific to the US. In fact if you really want to you wont have that much trouble to get them here in Europe too.

    I am not saying that this is not a good argument to use (actually it is one of the main points against gun control) though.
  6. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:31pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Okay, so you won't cite your sources, but yelled at Devil to do so. Gotcha. Do you notice what you keeping doing? Someone addresses your point, or asks you a question, then you fundamentally shift the discussion.
    Well I would have been fine with wikipedia if Devil cited from where. It is not like I did not provide a source, just that I admitted that it is not a convincing one.

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You never address a question
    I try to address question. I just had problems making sense out of your one questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You get mad when people "supposedly" put words in your mouth, but you have done that on at least 3 occasions.
    I actually try to play fair. If you can show me where exactly, I will apologize. Wasnít on purpose.


    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I asked you to clarify what you meant about double and it is a guess, So, to cover your error, you decide to talk about suicide being a bigger problem than homicide. So, now, you have shifted the talk from your erroneous guess, which concerned gun homicides vs. gun suicides, to the generality of homicides vs suicides.
    Yeah my guess was badly worded. I did not shift form gun homicides vs. gun suicides to general but pointed out that BOTH were true.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:43pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Once again what the hell does suicide have to do with defending oneself?

    I can choose* to you know NOT kill myself thus completely eliminating that risk.
    I can not however choose to not have my home invaded.


    *Notwithstanding some sort of mental health issue. If you do have a mental health issue that includes an elevated risk of suicide you plan accordingly.
    So once again this discussion about suicide is moot.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 2:56pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post

    Yeah my guess was badly worded. I did not shift form gun homicides vs. gun suicides to general but pointed out that BOTH were true.
    Both being true, which is not the case, while you are using two distinctly different sets of numbers is disingenuous.

    No, you didn't point out anything. I asked you to clarify your statement and what I received was:
    1) Read my earlier, lack of a citation, point.
    2) Here are total stats on a completely tangential topic.
    3) I am right, by my own logic, again.


    Your ignorance and the belief that it makes you logical is quite amazing.
  9. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 3:06pm


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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by killface View Post
    Criminals always find ways to get guns. This is not specific to the US. In fact if you really want to you wont have that much trouble to get them here in Europe too.

    I am not saying that this is not a good argument to use (actually it is one of the main points against gun control) though.
    This is true and it wrecks your whole argument so why say it?
    "Won't fight me in the ring? Don't fight me on the street."
    Paraphrased from Bullshido.

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  10. killface is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 3:20pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Once again what the hell does suicide have to do with defending oneself?

    I can choose* to you know NOT kill myself thus completely eliminating that risk.
    I can not however choose to not have my home invaded.


    *Notwithstanding some sort of mental health issue. If you do have a mental health issue that includes an elevated risk of suicide you plan accordingly.
    So once again this discussion about suicide is moot.
    You cant choose to kill yourself. It is always a mental health issue as far as most legal systems in most countries are concerned. (Yes is is arguable but better donÔŅĹt argue it is even uglier than the current topic.)

    When you invest time and energy in preparation for defending against an attacker you cant obviously use these resources to better your mental health (except when you can have both like doing MA). That is the connection. Also guns make it easier to commit suicide (yes there are other ways but they are definitely a tease).

    Basically i was using the suicide stats to put the like-hood of being murdered in relation. You are right with calling it moot.


    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Both being true, which is not the case, while you are using two distinctly different sets of numbers is disingenuous.

    No, you didn't point out anything. I asked you to clarify your statement and what I received was:
    1) Read my earlier, lack of a citation, point.
    2) Here are total stats on a completely tangential topic.
    3) I am right, by my own logic, again.

    Your ignorance and the belief that it makes you logical is quite amazing.
    I was honest about it being ambiguous and badly worded.
    If you look at that post I referred back to it says 3.6 gun-related homicides and 6.3 suicide so that makes it quite plausible, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovacs View Post
    This is true and it wrecks your whole argument so why say it?
    It is true, is that not enough reason to say it? Maybe this is not so obvious for the US folk and it adds to the discussion so i felt like I should share it. I am not such a bad person like some think here, I just like to troll.
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