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  1. jdempsey is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2013 10:48pm


     Style: lazy

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    everyone is different, but a couple of hours is a pretty bold claim.
  2. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2013 4:56am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumDragon View Post
    Youre certainly entitled to your opinion erezb, but the feedback loop Im referring to above is a well understood neural programming technique. Coincidentally, it works, as long as the skills (in this case bad habits) are dealt with under pressure. If hes really stubborn it might take more than a couple hours, but generally, you can install just about any skill at a given pressure level relatively quickly.

    If youre ever in my area, please feel free to look me up and we can do some training. Ill be happy to show you how it works...
    You are certainly entitled to your own opinion PlumDragon. I have never encountered someone that picked up (for good) a skill in one class (two hours) let alone get rid of a bad habit which (depends on the guys level of said skill) takes much much longer.

    One class to install tucking the chin, and that is it? no way. If that was that easy, people would learn in a year all they need to learn about boxing.

    Also please don't use terms that have zero proof "neural programing"???? " well understood"? really? well ,i would love for you to educate me and refer me to the numerous articles about said neural programing. I am curios because as a grad student second stage in neurobiology i would love to know what exactly is so well understood about the nervous system.
    I'll be more specific, to make it easier for you to educated me. Are the changes in the PNS or CNS or both? If so, are they in the DRGs in the soma of the neurons or someplace else? Are you referring to the inter-neurons in the spinal cord? or maybe the nucleus in the brain stem that get "reprogrammed?"
    Dude i think you are on to something here. Correct the person when he is doing something wrong, and he will learn. WOW! I think i'm going to write a few dog training books now, and heck maybe even a "how to book" on neuronal reprogramming for drug and alcohol addicts"
  3. PlumDragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2013 1:38pm


     Style: Tabimina Balintawak

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe just chilling out a bit is in order...Im not interested in entering one of those emotionally heated debates with you. Sometimes I wonder if its even worth posting on stuff like this. Did you happen to even try what Im talking about in earnest, or are you just interested in trying to dispel something because you happen to be a grad student in neurobiology? Like I said before, Im happy to offer training and work with people. I even offer free intro sessions to people. One of the first things I work on is blinking. Because it can be trained out...and it doesnt take that long...So if you want to really see whats involved, we can talk but I dont want to just sit here and throw words back and forth with you. Too far to visit and do a session? Fine, gimme a call, Ill talk your ear off. PM me for my number...

    First you were saying it was BS. Now youre saying its obvious...and mostly the methodology is obvious; the feedback loop that is. Whats not obvious seems to be how to issue a stimulus to take advantage of it and really install it. Fact is, changes in the CNS take place when someone is introduced to a new stimulus, be it different or just more extreme that what has already been experienced.

    I never claimed that the changes were all the sudden applicable at all levels of intensity. You have to work on these things in progressive levels, which is also something I imagine youre aware of.


    Jdempsey, sure everyones different. Thats a perfectly reasonable statement to make. Some people take a good deal more time. Some people do it in less...
  4. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2013 4:44am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Correcting someone while he is sparring is standard practice, that is why you have a coach. I did not say that this "method" is BS, i said that correcting a bad habit in 2 hours is BS. The guy will keep his chin down as long as he concentrated on that. Next class, you put him under some stress and that chin will pop up again.
    Are you a boxer? or a boxing coach?
  5. PlumDragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2013 8:31am


     Style: Tabimina Balintawak

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the guy is "concentrating" on keeping his chin down then hes not being put under enough pressure--hes thinking about it and his stimulus isnt giving enough stress. As I said earlier, he has to be put under pressure; if not its all inefficient time spent. Once hes under pressure, the chin *will* pop up...coincidentally, thats what you want to see, because it means youre working in a zone where its not "installed" correctly. Thats the only point where the feedback loop makes any difference. For the skill to be available under stress it has to be installed under stress. Thats where the growth always takes place.

    I do teach and some of my students call me "coach"--although I dont particularly like that term. I actually left a career as an engineer (where I had done my grad work working with neural network design and you guessed it, feedback control systems) to teach martial arts. What I teach is not western boxing, but the empty hand certainly looks like it to an outside observer...
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 6/23/2013 8:36am at .
  6. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2013 1:04am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What are your elbows like?

    If they are out all chicken wing. Then it opens your shoulders up. If they are tucked in then your shoulders will be naturally more hunched.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
  7. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2013 2:10am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumDragon View Post
    If the guy is "concentrating" on keeping his chin down then hes not being put under enough pressure--hes thinking about it and his stimulus isnt giving enough stress. As I said earlier, he has to be put under pressure; if not its all inefficient time spent. Once hes under pressure, the chin *will* pop up...coincidentally, thats what you want to see, because it means youre working in a zone where its not "installed" correctly. Thats the only point where the feedback loop makes any difference. For the skill to be available under stress it has to be installed under stress. Thats where the growth always takes place.

    I do teach and some of my students call me "coach"--although I dont particularly like that term. I actually left a career as an engineer (where I had done my grad work working with neural network design and you guessed it, feedback control systems) to teach martial arts. What I teach is not western boxing, but the empty hand certainly looks like it to an outside observer...
    So, you need to put the guy in so much stress that he can't concentrate enough on the simple task of keeping his chin down? How will he be able to concentrate let alone internalize anything you say?
    I disagree. I think that the tested methods for this problem which i stated above are the best. (Holding something under the chin while punching air, bag and even while defending from punches or light sparring, all take time).
    I think that a scenario of light sparing while you watch and correct is actually a much better way to teach\learn good form than a stressful one, for the beginning.
    There is such a bombardment of the nervous system for a beginner while even lightly sparring, that you actually need to take as much noise and stress out for the guy in order for him to even really listen to you while you give him pointers.
    And most importantly as far as I know, there are no magic "neuronal feedback loops" that you can tap into, and create correct technical reflexes in a single two hour class.
    If you are an expert on neuronal connections, why not paint a little scheme of the loops you refer to all the time?
    It can be something as simple as the knee jerk reflex or a recoil reflex loop when stepping on a sharp tack, both are established and you can easily find their schemes.
    Hell I know I sound skeptical, and I am, but if you can establish with a scheme what you are talking about, not only will you make me a believer, you will have a publishable article on your hands.
    Awaiting your reply, Erez.
    Last edited by erezb; 6/25/2013 2:44am at .
  8. MarJoe is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2013 4:20am


     Style: Western Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are mirrors in gym ? Assume your fighting stance in front of it. Let your fall down with no muscle force, nice and relaxed. I like that "look thru your eyebrows". Watch youself as you throw your punches and kicks. This you can see and correct when you raise your chin. Do this evry day for 5 to 10 minutes. When you traught your muscles to loosely keep your chin down then start moving around shadow boxing yourself. Joe
  9. PlumDragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2013 7:17am


     Style: Tabimina Balintawak

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Erez, I posted in this forum to help a guy that needed help--I gave advice and figured it would end at that--he takes it or he doesnt. TBH, I dont want to keep spending time typing into more detail. I have students training in half an hour until lunch. I have my special ops group for 3 hours this afternoon. And somewhere in there I have to get my workout in. I dont have the time to type out a big long explanation and field the volley of responses that it would likely produce; Ive debatedly already spent more time here than I should have--Look at my post count....140 posts in 7 years? Im not exactly a post whore.

    What I do want is for you and others to come train and feel what Im talking about...Or try it out yourselves (although with as many misunderstanding as were experiencing, it probably wont go over too well). And if its too far to travel then I leave the offer open to PM me your number and Ill call and explain it much better than I can type it and in much less time. Take me up on it, man! If you want an explanation, then what is a half hour phone call about a topic you like?

    I dont want to publish an article or be that amazing guy who convinced people over text of some aspect of fighting--I just want to train. And I just want you and others to feel the training...And Id also like others to keep weighing in their ideas so the original posters thread doesnt get hijacked by us arguing. ;)
    Last edited by PlumDragon; 6/25/2013 7:21am at .
  10. jkellener is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2013 5:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems to me what you are describing is neuro-linguistic-programming

    It has nothing to do with the nervous system. Instead, NLP treats the brain like a computer and to fix a computer you need to write a new program. This is re-programming the mind or the behavior pattern.

    As far as what works....I think everyone is correct in the various techniques to help a person keep their chin tucked.

    However, as everyone indicates, its easier said than done.

    Bottom line is, try every method until one works for you, the fact is all methods aim to keep the chin down.

    So, you will naturally develop a protected stance for your chin, and if not, well, KO
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