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  1. CircleOfFire is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2014 5:52pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Martial Artist do you agree with the following statement?

    so me and a friend were having a discussion on the following and his response is below (2nd paragraph)

    T'ai Chi & QiGong
    Internally and externally speaking, Gong Fu is indeed an inexhaustable well of spiritual knowing.

    Those of you who study or practice either one of the above mentioned disciplines, I have a question.

    What would you tell someone if they were trying to find out why these disciplines are so widely written about, revered and meditated upon?

    What have YOU gained from them?

    The statement, "The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang could be dangerous." only means, "The external and internal martial arts, once combined, could be dangerous." Why is this so?

    We all know that the external arts are deadly, but what specifically makes the internal arts even deadlier?

    In my own personal pursuit of many styles, I find the internal arts to be most [background=transparent !important]beautiful[/background]. Simply because they've given me a much richer understanding of many other fields of study. For example, studying QiGong, I completely understand Dr. Jose Arguelles' guidelines for evolution. Etc



    his response


    think it is extremely close to the type of :duck: and misinformation that us legitimate (read: not con men) practitioners of IMA seek to avoid. Practice of neigong/qigong will not make you a superman or more deadly. I practice two neigong sets as part of my curriculum, Wang Ji Wu's set and the Tian Gan routine and i can tell you that the benefit lies here:

    1)flexibility
    2)developing relaxed emphasis on body mechanics and joint positioning
    3)meditative benefit

    You are not gaining any metaphysical energy or hidden power by practicing neigong. I also find the bit about qigong to be silly, seeing as how many "external" martial arts utilize neigong sets of their own. A lot of "shaolin" schools have them as well, and even unaffiliated styles like the Fujian White Crane and Hung Gar.

    I think that you can gain a lot of understanding through deep repetitive practice, in a way that is hard to explain, but i thoroughly resent the "IMA>EMA" implications of that paragraph.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2014 7:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep, agree with your friend. There are many posts on this website detailing, arguing and causing people to rage quit when words similar to his have been written.

    He'd fit right in, on this website, with my belief of Qi, neigong, Internal vs External and other BS sold as "real Chinese Martial Arts."
  3. CircleOfFire is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2014 8:20pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    but why exactly wouldnt it be? some form of chi gong have movements ( i think there is one called 8 animal forms)
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2014 10:09pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang could be dangerous." is not some ancient Chinese wisdom. It's just a line from a movie, sampled in a Wu Tang Clan song.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4d0...tailpage#t=770
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 7/30/2014 10:13pm at .
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2014 10:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CircleOfFire View Post
    but why exactly wouldnt it be? some form of chi gong have movements ( i think there is one called 8 animal forms)
    Why wouldn't "what" be? Ask a question with some substance.
  6. CircleOfFire is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2014 7:59am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ask a question with some substance? we are reading the same thread correct? So therefore rudeness needs to be dismiss in the discussion. Why wouldnt chi gong be considered a martial arts style/form?
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2014 10:38am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CircleOfFire View Post
    ask a question with some substance? we are reading the same thread correct? So therefore rudeness needs to be dismiss in the discussion. ?
    Rude is telling someone how to run a forum you do not own.

    How does this:
    Why wouldnt chi gong be considered a martial arts style/form
    Equal this?
    but why exactly wouldnt it be? some form of chi gong have movements ( i think there is one called 8 animal forms)
    Your question can relate to multiple points in my post. Are you asking:
    Why it isn't a Chinese Martial Art?
    Why I agree IMA is not greater than EMA?


    So yes, you need to ask a question with more substance. If asking you for clarification is rude, best to join another website.

    Pushups are not a Martial art.
    Burpees are not a Martial art.
    Jumping Jacks are not a martial art.
    Yet, they all have different styles within their set exercises. Pushups have One hand, Inverted, reverse, clapping, and wide for example, but we don't run around saying it is "the push up art."

    Chi gung, Qigong and their sisters are exercises they are not Martial in and of themselves.
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2014 11:22am

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    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CircleOfFire View Post
    but why exactly wouldnt it be? some form of chi gong have movements ( i think there is one called 8 animal forms)
    The base problem of external/internal is that some people (a lot?) have interpreted the effects of the breathing, meditation, combined with movement to be some sort of "spiritual" experience. It's happened in yoga as well (and yes, I did yoga extensively for almost 10 years).

    Almost any sort of focused awareness coordinated with movement (such as the various forms of yoga), and what appears to me to be the same sort of thing done in the "internal" "martial arts" will eventually bring positive results to one degree or another if done enough. Hell, runners (and yes I have run/jogged extensively) get "runners high".

    Here, take a look at this...no eastern mysticism involved.
    http://www.feldenkrais.com/method/aw...ement_classes/



    I've DONE a few of the exercises the above (learned from an old copy of the above book I found in the library of a former Judo sensei of mine, no less) and it works.

    My take on all the "internal arts" stuff is that back in the day practitioners were looking for a way to concentrate the benefits of martial arts practice they were doing. And I mean real soldier/military arts type of practice that people depended upon for survival. They noticed the physical/mental/emotional benefits.

    As time went on and hand to hand combat became less important, especially with weapons (swords, spears, etc) with the advent of firearms, and perhaps times became more peaceful (the trend from jutsu to do in Japan is a great example), martial arts became more "spiritualized" as the emphasis became greater and greater on the "feel good" results of training. Focus switched more and more to "internal aspects".

    So the whole "internal vs external" issue is really artificial. Think yin and yang/ki and to or whatever if you want to put an "asian" label on it to satisfy your (perhaps) Chinaboo tendencies.

    In the end, you won't get skilled at any physical activity without hard work and sweat, in terms of martial arts that includes "alive" training with resistant training partners/opponents. Including "internal" exercises along with that can/could be a good thing. Just don't lose sight of the fact that you are doing a physical activity.

    And if you train long and hard enough, you will probably see "internal" type benefits to you as well. Once you get awareness of those sorts of things, you can then use various internally focused exercises (like qi gong, yoga, whatever) to REALLY feel them and then become "enlightened"!
    Last edited by BKR; 7/31/2014 11:38am at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2014 11:23am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CircleOfFire View Post
    Why wouldnt chi gong be considered a martial arts style/form?
    The same reasons yoga isn't a martial arts style/form, but plenty of martial artists might take yoga.

    Now, there are different forms of qi gong; some are more endurance-oriented, and they might be more suited to "martial arts" training programs, ie the ones that strengthen footwork, core, or grappling strength.

    There are also plenty that are not designed for much beyond expanding your belly and letting air fill your lungs, something many people have a surprisingly hard time doing because of stress, tension, or their scattered thoughts.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 7/31/2014 11:29am at .
  10. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2014 11:40am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What would you tell someone if they were trying to find out why these disciplines are so widely written about, revered and meditated upon?
    Spend quite a bit of time finding the best teacher within driving distance, then train with them as often as you can. To learn the martial side, work on sparring or drills with free play, not just forms and qigong.

    What have YOU gained from them?
    Flexibility, general relaxation, body awareness and mechanics, fun

    The statement, "The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang could be dangerous." only means, "The external and internal martial arts, once combined, could be dangerous." Why is this so?
    A person who can fight is dangerous, because they can hurt others via striking or grappling. Your second sentence there where you say "only means" does not necessarily mean what the first half does.

    We all know that the external arts are deadly, but what specifically makes the internal arts even deadlier?
    "Deadly has a lot less meaning now than it ever did. We have generations of martial artists who never killed anyone, and true killing arts tend to use weapons. The internal arts are not deadlier; both types strive for relaxed, full-body execution of techniques, be it in a strike, throw etc, they just approach things differently.

    In my own personal pursuit of many styles, I find the internal arts to be most [background=transparent !important]beautiful[/background]. Simply because they've given me a much richer understanding of many other fields of study. For example, studying QiGong, I completely understand Dr. Jose Arguelles' guidelines for evolution. Etc
    Qigong does seem to direct a percentage of its practitioners towards New Age beliefs, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

    Internal arts can certainly be beautiful, but fast, explosive martial arts are beautiful in a way that's different from coordinated but slow movement. Watching these guys in real time is a treat:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDs-...kkghF6Xcas1iOI
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