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  1. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 10:42am

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    7
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is no disconnect with complaining about excessive surveillance and the failure of said surveillance to apprehend criminals. People don't like being snooped on, but are sold a preposterous idea that in exchange for invasive surveillance they will gain security, then when said surveillance fails to predict some criminal action, they quite rightly ask "WTF, I thought you said in exchange for snooping, you would prevent this from happening?"

    The fact of the matter is that we can't even predict the weather, and that is much a much easier task. You can gather all the data you want, but you won't predict what's going to happen for an entire population of people. The only thing the data is good for, is fucking over individuals within that population. So if there is data being gathered on you, you'd better hope that no one involved in that collection process ever decides to **** you over, and that no one from outside the process breaks into that nice big collection of info and uses it to do something you don't like.
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 11:25am

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There would be a certain irony if the information gathering system itself became the target of a terrorist act.
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 12:34pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    There would be a certain irony if the information gathering system itself became the target of a terrorist act.
    Actually a problem with collecting data like this is that it becomes a target for good old fashioned fraud. So much easier to bribe/blackmail someone to get access to this one source than it is to try and collect the data yourself.
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 1:06pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    from http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/us...l?ref=us&_r=1&

    “If you realize that that’s the world you helped create and it is going to get worse with the next generation and the next generation and extend the capabilities of this architecture of oppression, you realize that you might be willing to accept any risks and it doesn’t matter what the outcome is,” - Edward Snowden

    He had access to lots of info that he didn't release - identities of agents and such. It interesting that he chose Hong Kong to fly to. China has massive conflicts with the US on cyber security. I wonder if the Chinese will allow extradition, though he does say he's seeking asylum perhaps in Iceland.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 6/10/2013 1:15pm at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 1:12pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Wow, I completely agree with Pat. That feels weird.
    Well I did a massive dose of shrooms the other day and it grounded me. Which is kinda ironic, but was the strongest I've ever done (look at the trail, trail goes into patterns, patterns goes into cartoons, cartoons start dancing around, getting lost so I look up quickly at the trees, trees start dancing around with the quaking aspen going one way, the firs the other...) and it's been twenty or thirty years since I'd partied much with silly simon and the fun guys.

    Now where did I leave my tin hat?

    8/1/07 Obama: "This Administration puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide…I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our Freedom”.

    “That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens, no more National Security letters to spy on American citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient”

    Daniel Ellsberg is an American hero.

    Many of "liberal" media are now saying that the US is acting in a way that East Germany would have admired - given the attacks on the Tea Party, the spying on Fox and AP the (Justice Department secretly obtained reporters' phone logs and covertly monitoring dozens personal and work phone lines of Associated Press reporters.), the draconian Patriot Act, secret orders to kill Americans suspected of terrorism , all this coming from a president who once promised transparency and accountability! http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/op...nted=all&_r=3&

    Now even Jim Sesenbrenner is speaking out!
    "Representative Jim Sensenbrenner, Republican of Wisconsin, who introduced the Patriot Act in 2001, said that the National Security Agency overstepped its bounds by obtaining a secret order to collect phone log records from millions of Americans.

    “As the author of the Patriot Act, I am extremely troubled by the F.B.I.’s interpretation of this legislation,” he said in a statement. “While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses.” He added: “Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American.” [Sensenbrenner also asked: "How could the phone records of so many innocent Americans be relevant to an authorized investigation?""

    I find myself with very strange bedfellows:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=86UL9ekiXDk#!
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 6/10/2013 1:44pm at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  6. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 1:31pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Who guards the guardians?" is the thought that comes to Mind.

    HUAC. Consider McCarthy and Cohn. Consider what they really were and contrast with their behaviour re HUAC.

    Nixon. Wow. "When the President does something, it's legal"...and him a trained lawyer.

    I'll have to get the Pentagon Paper out of the office library just to refresh and learn.

    Just my 2 bob.
  7. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 1:44pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    There is no disconnect with complaining about excessive surveillance and the failure of said surveillance to apprehend criminals. People don't like being snooped on, but are sold a preposterous idea that in exchange for invasive surveillance they will gain security, then when said surveillance fails to predict some criminal action, they quite rightly ask "WTF, I thought you said in exchange for snooping, you would prevent this from happening?"

    The fact of the matter is that we can't even predict the weather, and that is much a much easier task. You can gather all the data you want, but you won't predict what's going to happen for an entire population of people. The only thing the data is good for, is fucking over individuals within that population. So if there is data being gathered on you, you'd better hope that no one involved in that collection process ever decides to **** you over, and that no one from outside the process breaks into that nice big collection of info and uses it to do something you don't like.
    True...while my experience is with LE Surveillance and not NSA/CIA type stuff, I have found that data is far more useful for finding the bad guys after the fact than it is catching them before they act. It's also useful in tracking, locating and building patterns of people you are already investigating vs finding people WORTH investigating if you catch my drift.
  8. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 1:45pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Blood. Of. Patriots. And. Tyrants.
  9. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 1:51pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    I have found that data is far more useful for finding the bad guys after the fact than it is catching them before they act.
    The kind of people this surveillance is supposed to be targeting don't give a **** about being caught after their goal has been carried out. They usually want to be caught and be famous or die in the act.
  10. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2013 2:00pm

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    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's also the issue that more data can mean more purely correlational relationships, and thus more errors. Trying to collect data from every Verizon subscriber, for example, can lead to lots of false leads:

    http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/02...errors-people/
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