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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 10:12pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Thatís really interesting. I guess all this time I assumed that Langís system was identical to Vignyís system, but apparently I am wrong on that. I also donít have a knobbed\capped stick, so I guess Iíve never been able to see the difference myself. But that makes a lot of sense that it canít be wrist powered if it has a weighted end, compared to mine which is balanced and very light.
    The asymmetrical balance of the "classic" Vigny cane does make a big difference re. the practicality of some techniques. It basically gives you one slower, mace-like hard-hitting end and one faster, "stinging" end.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2013 10:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Again that definitely makes sense and is clearing things up in my head. Thank you for telling me all this. I guess I may have to invest in a capped\headed stick to practice this myself. Certainly I have to say that after reading the quotes and your posts, that I am much more familiar with Langís system than Vignyís system.
    The only detailed examinations of the Vigny system produced during his lifetime were Barton-Wright's technical articles for Pearson's Magazine and (to a lesser extent) an article written by a soldier named Laing, who studied the method at the Bartitsu Club in London. Laing was not (as far as we know) connected to the Lang who wrote "The Walking Stick Method of Self Defence" about 20 years later, although co-incidentally they were both Englishmen serving in a uniformed capacity in India.

    In practice, most revivalists either use Lang to supplement Vigny or vice-versa, depending on perspective.

    I encourage you to experiment with a weighted cane, just be aware that they hit hard. I'd recommend this design - http://www.woodenswords.com/ProductD...=Cane-Sparring - but ask for the handle to be secured with wax cord rather than with a metal tab.
  3. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2013 11:03am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The asymmetrical balance of the "classic" Vigny cane does make a big difference re. the practicality of some techniques. It basically gives you one slower, mace-like hard-hitting end and one faster, "stinging" end.
    So do you think that the asymmetrical balance helps you throw left handed blows (from the two handed guard) then? I find that my left handed blows, while relatively strong, are not even close to being as strong as my right handed ones. I wonder now if my balanced stick (with no taper) has something to do with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The only detailed examinations of the Vigny system produced during his lifetime were Barton-Wright's technical articles for Pearson's Magazine and (to a lesser extent) an article written by a soldier named Laing, who studied the method at the Bartitsu Club in London. Laing was not (as far as we know) connected to the Lang who wrote "The Walking Stick Method of Self Defence" about 20 years later, although co-incidentally they were both Englishmen serving in a uniformed capacity in India.

    In practice, most revivalists either use Lang to supplement Vigny or vice-versa, depending on perspective.
    It's a shame that more wasn't preserved. Does the second Bartitsu compendium have more stick plates or is it all in the first compendium?

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I encourage you to experiment with a weighted cane, just be aware that they hit hard. I'd recommend this design - http://www.woodenswords.com/ProductD...=Cane-Sparring - but ask for the handle to be secured with wax cord rather than with a metal tab.
    Have you tried their hickory Heavy Cane by any chance? Is it worth picking up for a every day walking cane (i.e. not used for sparring purposes)?
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2013 11:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    So do you think that the asymmetrical balance helps you throw left handed blows (from the two handed guard) then? I find that my left handed blows, while relatively strong, are not even close to being as strong as my right handed ones. I wonder now if my balanced stick (with no taper) has something to do with that.
    I'm not sure what you're asking. From the high two-handed guard, you can throw either right or left handed blows with either a forehand or backhand action, depending on how you release the stick. In general, hitting with the "heavy end" is a harder hit, either forehand or backhand, just due to the extra weight feeding momentum; beyond that, it's all down to body mechanics.


    It's a shame that more wasn't preserved. Does the second Bartitsu compendium have more stick plates or is it all in the first compendium?
    Volume 2 includes most of Lang's book with some of the Pearson's material edited in for clarity and also the Captain Laing article I referred to in the last post, but the latter doesn't have much in the way of pictures beyond some simple sketches of basic techniques that are better illustrated in the Pearson's photographs. The Laing article does offer some "new" set-plays, though.

    Have you tried their hickory Heavy Cane by any chance? Is it worth picking up for a every day walking cane (i.e. not used for sparring purposes)?
    We have one of the heavy canes at the Forteza studio. IMO it's too heavy for everyday use and the balance and weight are "out" for most Bartitsu purposes; Vigny's original design called for a malacca (rattan) cane with a steel or brass ball handle, and the system is really optimized for that type of cane. OTOH the Purpleheart heavy cane is really strong and would probably make a good weapon in a real fight.
  5. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2013 1:24pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I'm not sure what you're asking. From the high two-handed guard, you can throw either right or left handed blows with either a forehand or backhand action, depending on how you release the stick. In general, hitting with the "heavy end" is a harder hit, either forehand or backhand, just due to the extra weight feeding momentum; beyond that, it's all down to body mechanics.
    Let me restate that.

    I notice that the canes depicted are generally capped with a ball and they have a tapering shaft. Therefore, the ferrule-end is lighter both due to the taper and the lack of a weight on that side. So let's say you use the high two-handed guard and your left hand is grasping the stick on the side with the head. So you throw your cut and it hits with the slim, ferrule-end of the stick. I would imagine that it is much easier to throw strong cuts in this manner.

    With a balanced stick, each side is the same weight and thus each side is equally difficult or easy to cut with depending on your ability to use each arm equally well. So even though your cuts are body powered with the two handed guard, your right arm is still going to be stronger if you're right handed. If one side of the stick is lighter and you use that side of your stick to cut with your left arm, it ought to be easier to cut.

    Is that true in your experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Volume 2 includes most of Lang's book with some of the Pearson's material edited in for clarity and also the Captain Laing article I referred to in the last post, but the latter doesn't have much in the way of pictures beyond some simple sketches of basic techniques that are better illustrated in the Pearson's photographs. The Laing article does offer some "new" set-plays, though.

    We have one of the heavy canes at the Forteza studio. IMO it's too heavy for everyday use and the balance and weight are "out" for most Bartitsu purposes; Vigny's original design called for a malacca (rattan) cane with a steel or brass ball handle, and the system is really optimized for that type of cane. OTOH the Purpleheart heavy cane is really strong and would probably make a good weapon in a real fight.
    Okay that's good to know for when I get some disposable income. Thanks.
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2013 1:55pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Let me restate that.

    I notice that the canes depicted are generally capped with a ball and they have a tapering shaft. Therefore, the ferrule-end is lighter both due to the taper and the lack of a weight on that side. So let's say you use the high two-handed guard and your left hand is grasping the stick on the side with the head. So you throw your cut and it hits with the slim, ferrule-end of the stick. I would imagine that it is much easier to throw strong cuts in this manner.

    With a balanced stick, each side is the same weight and thus each side is equally difficult or easy to cut with depending on your ability to use each arm equally well. So even though your cuts are body powered with the two handed guard, your right arm is still going to be stronger if you're right handed. If one side of the stick is lighter and you use that side of your stick to cut with your left arm, it ought to be easier to cut.

    Is that true in your experience?
    I'd say that under those circumstances it's easier for a right-handed fighter to throw a left-handed cut with the ferrule-end in that it's lighter than the ball-handle end, but that beyond that factor, again, it comes down to body mechanics.

    Really, the strongest "strike" with the cane (either hand) is functionally a cutting movement powered by shifting the weight from foot to foot, though again, that action tends to be too strong for use in sparring.
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