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  1. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 11:48am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Definitely really helpful ideas all around.

    Here’s another question for everyone. How do you determine when the knife user is “incapacitated” when sparring or drilling? The way we spar with swords is generally that we reset after a solid hit, rather than going for set amounts of time. We do the knives the same way. So how do you determine when the knifer has been smacked into submission by the stick user? In the drill we did last week, we basically used pain level as the determining factor. If the stick hit enough to make the person feel uncomfortable about keep attacking or they took a solid hit to the head, they stopped. If it wasn’t painful or loud enough (in the mask), then they kept going. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    My teacher has us fight each year at a local stickfighting tournament. In long weapons, most people pick 2 eskrima sticks, but I go with a short staff. I've gone up against double sticks, shinai, and double tonfas. Suffice to say that skill is the biggest factor when it comes to being able to dominate. Some people will block a hard shot with both sticks and my strike will still crash through and hit them. Others have a better understanding of defense and if my first shot doesn't land, they're closing.
    That makes sense. I think a limiting factor in my training is that not a lot of folks practice dagger very seriously in the group, which means that they have less skill when it comes to going up against the walking stick and it gives me a false sense of confidence. The size of the stick helps too, since it has the mass and speed required to smack the knife out of their hand or at least to smack the knife and then bounce onto the hand (which has the same effect). The same is true with poll-mounted weapons, which tend to “blow through” counter-attacks and wards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    It depends, usually when we do stick vs knife we use padded 28" rattan and a nok-type knife trainer.

    As Permalost says, I think its a skill issue, as in my experiences the guy with the stick only has time for 1-2 strikes before he gets tackled by the guy with the knife. It could also be a matter of stick length, I'm assuming your canes are a bit longer so you're starting at longer range.
    Okay. I use a modified rattan cane that’s about 37” and rondell daggers in the 15-20” length range. I noticed, when using the cane, that the “whizzing” of the cane has a big psychological effect against the knife user. Lang describes a “Clearing Practise” movement where the cane user is basically cutting an angle 1 and backhand angle 4 combination while passing to-and-fro the target. I use this movement a lot when I need to push knife users away from me, so perhaps that’s why I am not getting bum rushed much. But then again, it’s also possible that the people I train with just don’t feel very comfortable with their dagger skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    I fought double-stick vs a guy with a Shinai back in February, I found that I'd take maybe 1-2 shots on the way in (admittedly my defense was bad enough that I did get smacked in the head) but once I got inside his reach it was pretty much my fight.
    To be fair though, the shinai isn’t a very accurate blade trainer. It’s possible that you’d better against a boken, since it is probably easier to close in against.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    We haven't trained knife vs. stick because it doesn't appear in the canonical Bartitsu material, though Barton-Wright and Pierre Vigny (the stick fighting instructor at the original Bartitsu Club in London) both referred to to that scenario in demonstrations, etc.
    Cool video. I have yet to spar against another Vigny\Bartitsu user, so I’m excited to see how I’d do. It’s a shame that there aren’t more videos of that type out there. And I got the idea for this drill by reading the end part of Lang’s “Walking Stick” book, where he discusses the advantages of a stick against a knife.

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    I can come out on top as the knife guy, but I have to be willing to sacrifice an arm. If it is a "duel" (or certain other scenarios), then this is OK because broken bones heal while being dead doesn't.
    Several:
    1. Change the range. Knife guy gets to start at closer than 6 feet.
    2. Change your grip. Cane guy doesn't get to use an optimally set grip or grip location on the cane. Instead, he must grip the cane half way down the shaft or at the top of the crook (as if he were walking with it).
    3. Change the direction. The knife guy attacks from behind, as if in ambush.
    4. Change the space. Use a restricted area environment such as an office cubicle or a very cluttered garage.
    5. Change your mobility. 99% of cane systems asume that the guy with a cane doesn't need one as an ambulatory aid. So... break your foot. Failing that, put a pebble inside your shoe so that walking is painful. Tie one leg "folded up" as if you had an amputation at the knee. Hobble your ankles together so that your footwork is limited to 1-Foot steps. You get the idea.
    6. Change the spectators. Knife guy gets unarmed buddies who will "come to his aid" after a set period of time (perhaps 5 seconds to 30 seconds).
    7. Change the crowd. Knife guy attacks you "in the middle of a crowd." Restrict the area to maybe a 30' square or circle and then have the rest of the class milling about randomly inside when the knife guy attacks you as if the attack is occurring on a crowded street. After 3 seconds of action, the "crowd" is free to "suddenly realize" there's a violent encounter and am-scray.


    There are others but this is a really good start.

    Try opposing the cane to a flexible weapon such as a sjambok or 'chucks.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Thanks! I am going to print up your suggestions and bring them along next time. I like the “middle of a crowd” idea a lot, especially since it reminds me of Wright’s section on fighting in a crowd of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    It's a Staff, but it's being thrust in waist level spear-like motion.
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Pedantically, the weapon Barton-Wright was talking about was an alpenstock (a spiked hiking staff), so sort of an improvised spear.
    Got it. We have a six foot staff that we use for short spear work, so I’ll try it out.
  2. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 12:23pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Pedantically, the weapon Barton-Wright was talking about was an alpenstock (a spiked hiking staff), so sort of an improvised spear.
    Fair enough. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpenstock

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  3. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2013 12:24pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of my main staff/walking stick tactics is to strike with a hard downward forehand (right lead, right hand forward on the stick), aiming for a left blocking arm (or it may hit a weapon or head), expecting a charge as soon as it contacts something. As I follow through with the strike, my left foot swings back like an inquartata, getting me "off the X" and setting me up for a power backhand (using the front side "true edge" of the staff). Its a short sequence but the 2 strikes hit about as hard as you can with a staff (especially the 2nd one). It took a long time to get comfortable with backhand staff strikes though since they didn't really have them when I learned staff in CMA. This would be a preferred technique against someone with a knife, given open range.
  4. Vorschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2013 7:30pm


     Style: kampfringen/savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My first concern is that the guys using dagger should not be having trouble against cane, in my opinion medieval dagger (up to 18" long + trained in kampfringen) should not have a problem with cane, at least not the Le Canne method.

    Were you using Le Canne or Vigny's method?

    "kill shots" or "incapacitating strikes" will depend on the method.
    Vigny's method and full blat could cause concussion or worse from a strike ("cut") or even a thrust to the head/face.
    It could blow out a knee with a strike, break the floating rips, end the fight with a thrust to the solar plexus, the groin or the throat.

    With the Le Canne Method the strikes need to pretty much on the mark, the thrusting targets don't change and the cuts are aimed at the jaw, floating ribs and knee caps.
    Again trying to blow them out but as you can guess it's not as easy without using the mace like end of the cane to do so.
    With Le Canne being based on Sabre but without the benefit of a cutting edge this should be an uphill battle against someone with a bladed weapon.

    Further to this you could use the cane in both hands, while this still has a functional thrust and a short range strike (think butt strikes) it is more a grappling lever (think ringen am schwert) which could actually work nicely against dagger, but I have not tested this this is an assumption at best.
  5. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 4:55pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Still working on getting a video. Apparently only about 20 seconds were recorded but that might be cool since now I can experiment with Vine videos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    My first concern is that the guys using dagger should not be having trouble against cane, in my opinion medieval dagger (up to 18" long + trained in kampfringen) should not have a problem with cane, at least not the Le Canne method.
    Were you using Le Canne or Vigny's method?
    I primarily use Vigny’s method (as done in Lang’s book), with influence from materials Cunningham and Barton-Wright. I was originally planning on shifting to more of a Savate and Le Canne method, but I eventually shifted over to Cunningham instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    "kill shots" or "incapacitating strikes" will depend on the method.
    Vigny's method and full blat could cause concussion or worse from a strike ("cut") or even a thrust to the head/face.
    It could blow out a knee with a strike, break the floating rips, end the fight with a thrust to the solar plexus, the groin or the throat.
    I think there are some really good gems in the Vigny method:
    The very high, arcing head cuts in combinations with uppercuts are very useful. It’s so fast to cut a head and uppercut back to back that it disrupts the other person’s ability to defend. The Flick and Flip are great too. The Clearing Method is telegraphing but it certainly has power and a morale-killing effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    Further to this you could use the cane in both hands, while this still has a functional thrust and a short range strike (think butt strikes) it is more a grappling lever (think ringen am schwert) which could actually work nicely against dagger, but I have not tested this this is an assumption at best.
    To be honest I think that maintaining a big distance is better than coming in to bayonet the knifer. Defending by distance and throwing many blows in combinations to target the hands and face worked really well for me, along with the occasional knee cut thrown in throw them off. A 20 inch dagger is something I want to keep away from my body as much as possible.
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 5:54pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just noting that, as far as we know, Vigny's system was imported verbatim into Bartitsu, so all the Pearson's Magazine material represents Vigny canne c1900 and Bartitsu cane simultaneously. We've theorized the the jointlock/trip/throw techniques in Pearson's may represent a fusion of Vigny's original system with jujitsu, which could only have happened at Barton-Wright's club in London, but no-one knows for sure.

    While it isn't immediately obvious from the Pearson's sequences, supplementary sources and pressure-testing via sparring make it pretty clear that the high double-handed guard is an important part of the system, likewise double-handed strikes. At a certain point it kind of naturally blends with Cunningham.
  7. Vorschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 6:45pm


     Style: kampfringen/savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    I think there are some really good gems in the Vigny method:
    The very high, arcing head cuts in combinations with uppercuts are very useful.
    Couldn't agree more, an uppercut with a cane is a beautiful thing.
  8. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2013 9:22am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay so I got the two videos up.



    This shorter video was a 2 on 1, where that random ARMA member standing in the back is the first person I took out so this only shows the other person going against me. The tactic I was working on here was trying to "transition" from multiple guards by going from a circling guard, down to a low guard, back up to a high guard, and then back to circling guard. I feel like it was effective tactic because the guy I'm going against is normally an audacious dude, but he took a much more defensive approach here. Now that I see the video, though, I think I ought to have adopted a higher circling guard and I wasn't very smooth with my transitions (I left myself open too much by not being smooth).



    This one is the 3 on 1 drill. We did a few rounds before this one and I realized the value of doing a simple Clearing Practice against multiple people. I basically cut big, heavy diagonal cuts at each of them to keep them away from me. After I made some space I started to go against the first one who started retreating (the guy in the brown arming shirt). So this one was less technical I suppose, but I was really focused on throwing big bombs and making space around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    While it isn't immediately obvious from the Pearson's sequences, supplementary sources and pressure-testing via sparring make it pretty clear that the high double-handed guard is an important part of the system, likewise double-handed strikes. At a certain point it kind of naturally blends with Cunningham.
    I think the two handed guards are fantastic. That said, I haven't used it when going against multiple people. So until then I can't comment on it. But one on one I love the ability to do two handed blows and switch up the hands being used.
    Last edited by Mordschlag; 6/21/2013 9:26am at .
  9. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/21/2013 10:31am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hate to double post but I also wanted to attach these videos too. Here is some Hutton sabre sparring to contrast against the stick. I definitely do not use the stick like a sabre and I have no plans on doing so, hence why I use more of a Vigny method.




    Having some trouble embedding these but hopefully they work.
    Last edited by Mordschlag; 6/21/2013 10:54am at . Reason: can't figure out video posting arg
  10. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/21/2013 10:56am

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Okay so I got the two videos up.


    He was a chicken ****. You should have been dead and laid out with a knife in your solar plexus after it bounced off your mask a times mid-clash.

    Your wristy flicks were making contact. You need to be circling off and hitting him hard enough for him NOT to want to charge in. Looks like point fighting from where I am sitting.

    Sorry to be so critical but it takes some serious skill and power to effectively deal with a knife with a cane in hand and I didn't see the skill sets I was taught. Not that how and what I know is the only way to do it but, it is the only effective way I can think of against a dedicated attacker who is willing to take a blow to get a killing strike or ten in against a blunt weapon.

    Keep up the sparring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
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