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  1. faixabranca is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 9:16am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're evading the other poster's question.
  2. submessenger is online now
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 9:24am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by faixabranca View Post
    You're evading the other poster's question.
    His question is not relevant to this discussion; it shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter.
  3. warlordgrego is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 10:11am


     Style: Chito-Ryu, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a little bit of an odd connection with both the Manning and Snowden cases.

    1) I'm a 35F in the Army (now in the reserves), the same MOS as Manning. I've also served with Manning's former Company Commander, who is out of the military now. The shadow cast onto his career from the leaks basically screwed his career forever. He was a good officer in my reckoning, but I didn't serve directly under him.

    2) I presently work for Booz Allen, the firm that Snowden worked for when he leaked the NSA information.

    I don't have mixed feelings on either case. Manning was a **** head that should have been kicked out of the Army for behavior issues instead of deploying to a war zone. I don't know why he wasn't, other than the Army is very politically correct. He is not courageous. He submitted the documents to wikileaks through a third party and anonymously, and was flat out caught. At least Snowden has the balls to come out personally.

    As far as the NSA thing, I think people are kind of overreacting. From what I've read, all the NSA saw was a phone number and call duration. I don't necessarily like that their collecting that information, but they weren't monitoring people's phone calls. The NSA doesn't have the resources for that. Snowden signed a contract to handle classified information. He could have been dismayed at what he saw, but there are in-house methods he could have used. The fact is, what he's done will not change how the NSA operates.
  4. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 3:24pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, pretty much; Manning can rot in hell.
  5. Stickybomb is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 3:51pm


     Style: judo, boxing -noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Submessenger,

    I'm not saying that US is like Nazis were. Far from that. I just presented an example where could obeying orders lead. If you witness atrocities and your superior orders you to forget about it in your nation's best interest....?
    Although I also think that forcefully messing with internal affairs of other countries and invading nations for trivial reasons is not appropriate. Don't get me wrong again, I know that Sadam is responsible for many crimes against humanity, but to be executed under supervision of such jelly that G.W. Bush is, is an insult to intelligence. And speaking of Irak, it's in far worse shape than it was, and let's not forget Iran contra...

    I would also like to see Taliban get their asses kicked, but I would not poke a country which shook off Genghis-Khan and Soviet union even with nuclear rockets. Anyways, I think that hunt for Osama should be more of a black ops operation, not open war.

    You see, my country was one of those where some of the dirtiest and most hard fought guerrilla warfare happened during second world war. The effects are still visible and people who experienced it and their offsprings still argue about it, because we also had a strong collaborator's force. So I can at least imagine a little bit how messy and out of hand things can get, but crimes should be persecuted strongly. Because the more innocent people you kill the more will be ready to strap a bomb on them and blow other innocent people up. Karma is a bitch one could say.
    Believe me, it would be in army's best interest to make such things public and those responsible put to trial. And take care that there would be as little such cases as possible.


    Because sometimes when you read, watch videos and talk to people, you get the impression that situation is as chaotic as in the movie Jarhead - sorry for a better example.
    Sometimes a man can get the impression that there is far too much friendly fire incidents, that the army is full of young confused people and social rejects who shoot criss-cross on everything preferably while being safely canned in an Abrams, and blasting loud music, that there are many things that are just swept under the rug and that foreign troops who work with that army do not have the best opinion about it's professionalism.
    I totally hope these impressions are wrong and that it's really just about a few excesses, which happen in every war (but should be punished none the less)
    Last edited by Stickybomb; 6/13/2013 3:56pm at .
  6. submessenger is online now
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    Transmaniacon MC

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 4:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickybomb View Post
    Anyways, I think that hunt for Osama should be more of a black ops operation, not open war.
    You do realize we got Osama bin Laden, right? Hollywood has literally already made the film, it's available on DVD and Blu-ray.
  7. Stickybomb is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 5:06pm


     Style: judo, boxing -noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    O-zombie? Saw that documentary's review..
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 5:21pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Apparently Osama wasn't the one living in a cave.
  9. Stickybomb is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 5:50pm


     Style: judo, boxing -noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ...as long as the cave has internet and is cosy :-)

    Don0t take it too personal I know I don't know much and am pretty far away being fed scrubs from the media (like pretty much all). But hey t3h freedomz of speech and exchanging opinions perhaps make Johnny a bit smarter sometimes.
    Also there is possible to see more from a distance sometimes (not necessarily this case)
    Last edited by Stickybomb; 6/13/2013 5:56pm at .
  10. nils is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2013 5:58pm


     Style: FormerShotokan,Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    His question is not relevant to this discussion; it shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter.
    His question was valid, his example maybe a bit over the top. Still, the fact remains that "I just followed orders" is a very poor defense, ethically and juristically. If the example of Eichmann is too extreme, think of war criminals in Serbia, Egypt, Libya or elsewhere.

    In the end the juristical questions have to be sorted out by a fair trial (which will not happen), while the ethical question should be if the ends of Mannings actions justify the means.

    It should not be forgotten that in the wake of Brannings leaks, public attention was forced on warcrimes, deathlists ("terror-tuesday"), massive disregard of civillian life and other actrocities that would have been kept secret if Manning and those unidentified whistleblowers that followed his example kept quiet.

    Furthermore, he did not have legal alternatives; going by chain of command is useless when warcrimes are ordered from the top of the chain.

    And I'd say that this legitimates Mannings actions. The lives of innocent men, women and children (or "enemy combattants", as those being responsible are calling the dead children who were in the general vincinity of the killed terror-suspects) should be important enough.

    Or, to take a more specific example, what is the greater crime: Manning's whistleblowing or the murder of a 16-year-old US-citizen who was killed because his father was the host of a antiamerican radio show at the end of the world (Yemen)?

    Still, Manning gets torture while Obama gets a Nobel-Peace-Prize. Strange world.

    one source for last example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w...b_1606371.html
    Last edited by nils; 6/13/2013 6:16pm at .
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