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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 12:51pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    I was sprayed when I was 16, in county jail. "It sucked" was an understatement of epic levels. I got sprayed again when I was 18, by a friend of a friend when we were rough housing in dudes house. It turned into an actual drunken fight and we broke some stuff and wouldn't stop.
    Not nearly as bad, at all. Slight respiratory ,eyes swelled mostly shut, but no complete "oh my god my face is melting off, please no water just pluck my eyes out and take my ears, nose, throat, and skin with it, I will just grow it all back later" reaction like with the stuff the Officers had.

    This was like 18 years ago, have the average consumer sprays gotten that much better?
    Depends on the locality. Different states, different rules.

    Got sprayed again this weekend. Fucking sucked. It would definitely make me 90% less successful as a combatant for at least two minutes, plenty of time for someone to get away or to shank me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    I've been sprayed breaking a fight. It sucks but doesn't incapacitate.

    I don't recommend sprays as reliable SD tools against commited attackers at arms/grappling distance.
    A CS spray should be used at about 6-10 feet.

    And before you go there...

    SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katje View Post
    Thanks Der, that's really great stuff, particularly what you were saying about competence. It seems like the more I look into it - both on and off bullshido - the more it seems like a SD course would be a useful supplement to training in an alive MA, since there is generally a much higher focus on situational awareness, prevention and in some cases de-escalation than in a normal MA class.

    It seems that issues can come up particularly in the marketing for these courses and the management of participant's expectations. If they aren't handled properly they can lead the participant to think that in a few days they can learn all they need to defend themselves, especially if the instructor isn't honest and realistic about what the course can actually do for them, but I'll have to do a bit more legwork before I've got any qualitative data on that.

    So far out of the people I've posed the subject to the response has overwhelmingly been that while a SD course might serve to help bolster your confidence or broaden your knowledge base it can't be used in isolation as a replacement for consistent learning and practice.

    I've also been thinking about whether, if you've been assaulted, it's more beneficial to start a MA course right off the bat or transition through an SD course first. Clearly you've had major success with the latter, but do you think a student would benefit equally from just starting to come to regular classes, or does the SD course give students an edge?

    I hope these don't seem like silly questions.When it comes to the comparative benefits on offer by SD and MA courses I haven't got the breadth of information that you & other members on here have to draw on and even though I plan to deal with it fairly briefly it's one of those topics where the more solid the information you can base your writing on the better.
    When you say "Self-defense course", do you mean "Womens' Rape & Mugging Course" or "WEEKEND IMMERSION KRAV UBERWARRIOR BOOTCAMP EXTREME!!!"?
    Last edited by Jiggle Butt; 6/05/2013 12:55pm at .
  2. Lampa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 1:07pm

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     New York MMA Examiner Style: magic FUCKING powers!

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    I was sprayed when I was 16, in county jail. "It sucked" was an understatement of epic levels. I got sprayed again when I was 18, by a friend of a friend when we were rough housing in dudes house. It turned into an actual drunken fight and we broke some stuff and wouldn't stop.
    Not nearly as bad, at all. Slight respiratory ,eyes swelled mostly shut, but no complete "oh my god my face is melting off, please no water just pluck my eyes out and take my ears, nose, throat, and skin with it, I will just grow it all back later" reaction like with the stuff the Officers had.

    This was like 18 years ago, have the average consumer sprays gotten that much better?
    I think a lot of you already saw this old gem.

  3. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 1:20pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theAsthmatic View Post
    I find the best form of self defense to be a loyal pet bear. Walk down the street with one of those and nobody will want to mess with you.

    Bear > small knife.
    Speaketh the voice of experience.

    Are you a loyal pet twink?

    Have you ever wondered if the pain you regularly endure this way is less than the pain of an attack?
  4. theAsthmatic is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 1:43pm


     Style: sambo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Speaketh the voice of experience.

    Are you a loyal pet twink?

    Have you ever wondered if the pain you regularly endure this way is less than the pain of an attack?
    Had to look that one up :) I of course meant a real bear. You know the 600lbs furry creature with the round ears and huge claws.. Bah, nevermind...

    But I am sure someone who's into being a twink doesn't find the regular day to day of all that entails to be particularly painful. Walking down the street with one of those bears is probably just as safe.
  5. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 2:46pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    A CS spray should be used at about 6-10 feet.
    A very short distance to be a reliable stopper.
  6. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 3:00pm


     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    When you say "Self-defense course", do you mean "Womens' Rape & Mugging Course" or "WEEKEND IMMERSION KRAV UBERWARRIOR BOOTCAMP EXTREME!!!"?
    I meant more of a "Women's Rape & Mugging Course" type deal, the type the average Joe/Josephine might take up (or at least take up more readily, anyway)
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 4:13pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    A very short distance to be a reliable stopper.
    10 feet= 32 short knife blades
  8. Drunken Soim is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2013 11:39pm


     Style: Chinese MA

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I live in a country where it's illegal for the common citizen to carry any weapon. Only cops, military, private security professionals, VIP and criminals do it. Oh, and the ones who got themselves a gun before the prohibition too.

    Most assaults in my region are done with firearms. Self defense often goes wrong. Everytime I hear about someone who resists mugging, the poor fellow is usually shot dead. Most people don't carry guns, so criminals KNOW they can't resist properly.

    Violence against women and children, on the other hand, is usually done with blades or brute force. Gang rape is becoming rarer. What's becoming really common is sexual violence against family members and relatives. It's very destructive psychologically, and most of those criminals and their victims are very poor. Those people will probably never hear anything about self defense classes.

    As a member of this community, I try to raise awareness around violence against women and children. However, people around here, especially women, usually regard MA as sports only. They try MA training only for fitness purposes. I have only one female friend who actually did it for self defense purposes.

    So, in my current reality, self defense classes would have to include political awareness and insights on criminal legislation (e.g. imagine you manage to seize the gun from the hands of an assailant - you might be processed and sent to jail if you shoot him here). As for people who survived violence, psychological support would be good too.

    All that and actual training, of course.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2013 7:29am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Katje View Post
    I've also been thinking about whether, if you've been assaulted, it's more beneficial to start a MA course right off the bat or transition through an SD course first. Clearly you've had major success with the latter, but do you think a student would benefit equally from just starting to come to regular classes, or does the SD course give students an edge?
    If a self-defense course gives prospective students an edge, it's because they've heard me already discuss situational awareness, the OODA loop, etc.

    You will get women coming to self-defense courses who would never sign up for a martial arts class. That is just a fact of the matter. You will get family groups, mothers & daughters, sisters, sororiety groups, etc. You teach to all all of them, rather than focusing on developing a fighter. You teach in a manner to empower them, because they are likely already coming in with a healthy fear of violence. Women, unlike men, usually do not have an over-inflated sense of what they will do when confronted by violence. My experience has shown me that many need to find some way to connect with their inner fighter and draw it out. A self-defense course can be extremely valuable for that, and truthfully, that, and situational awareness, can be more valuable than any collection of techniques.
  10. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2013 8:16am


     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander View Post
    If a self-defense course gives prospective students an edge, it's because they've heard me already discuss situational awareness, the OODA loop, etc.

    You will get women coming to self-defense courses who would never sign up for a martial arts class. That is just a fact of the matter. You will get family groups, mothers & daughters, sisters, sororiety groups, etc. You teach to all all of them, rather than focusing on developing a fighter. You teach in a manner to empower them, because they are likely already coming in with a healthy fear of violence. Women, unlike men, usually do not have an over-inflated sense of what they will do when confronted by violence. My experience has shown me that many need to find some way to connect with their inner fighter and draw it out. A self-defense course can be extremely valuable for that, and truthfully, that, and situational awareness, can be more valuable than any collection of techniques.
    That makes a lot of sense. I'm planning to aim the article itself at men & women who have suffered an assault and already decided to learn to fight or at least are considering doing so. Apart from touching on SD vs a full MA course and what they will offer a student, the focus will mainly be on what to expect in class and suggestions of how to manage and mitigate the fallout of their trauma so they can get the most out of their training.

    The piece isn't by any means meant to be an authority on the subject, but when I decided to take up MA there was very little information about what to do or what to expect or what my rights were when it came to dealing with people who were taking the piss, so I thought it might be useful to collect information about it in one place. Hopefully it can serve as a resource of sorts and be of use to somebody.

    Thanks again for the information Der, I really appreciate it!
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