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  1. SifuAbel is offline
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    Hole in one.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2002 4:37am

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    spoken like the clueless beast you are.

    LOL! "get you own proof" LOL!

    I tell ya' sometimes your babble is priceless.

    So, you can't answer my question? You sir ARE a Mcdojo. All by yourself.

    You are actually basing tomes and rhemes of opinions on a few photos taken god knows when and in what circumstance against god know who. Where were you when Clinton need an out from his blow job case?

    Bwahahahahahaha

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    Give to Haiti relief. text "haiti' to 90999
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TeacherMonkey?feature=mhee
  2. Mercurius is offline
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    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2002 2:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When, what circumstances, and who were the photos taken of? Maybe if you could have handled looking at that page and learning something about your own art, you would have found out.

    I'll save you the trouble: The pose photos were taken for the fights on August 6th, 1921. The first photo I posted was of Han Hongdun vs Nai Tah. The second was of Fu Xingpeng (the site doesn't say his opponent's name). These two masters, along with Zi Zheng and Wu Daqian, were all knocked out in the first round.

    The fight photo was of Lai Hu vs Nai Yahng, May 13th, 1922. Lai Hu was knocked out in 2 rounds.

    They used the same manner of Kung Fu which I'm talking about, and they were all knocked out, 80% of them in the first round. That test of effectiveness is what I base my opinion of their generic style of Kung Fu on.

    Sure, Muay Thai is a very effective martial art, but losing so easily to it implies basic deficiencies that a solid Karateka, Western Boxer, or even Korean stylist could exploit.

    These men thought they could fight and trained in styles they thought could prepare them to fight and were proven sorely wrong. Does that mean someone else, a better martial artist, couldn't have made the styles work? No. Does it mean I don't plan to study those styles anyway? Yes.

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  3. Braden is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2002 4:18pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mercurius

    "it's just conjecture but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that given the chance on the defensive, he'd resume the stance he had when he was posing...but as further conjecture I don't think it's unlikely that they would have used the same stances to begin the fight..."

    That's as sound reasoning as saying it's not unreasonable that a Muay Thai fighter would begin a fight balancing on one foot with the other extended to temple-height, or maybe like this:



    "...with a video it might prove easier to pick out 'that looks like a Tai Chi defense' or 'that's an application of such and such technique'."

    Well, the fact that it's a video wouldn't change the experience, or lack thereof, from which you are basing your judgements.
  4. SifuAbel is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2002 7:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm still waiting for you to answer my question on top of page four. If your entire experience with kung fu is is based on this web page then please stop now and save yourself any further embarrassment.

    This whole argument based on what you think "Might" have been the case back in 1921 from pics of an anti kung fu web page is so stupid.

    Thai guys are small to begin with and the supposed "kung fu masters' were even smaller than them , where did they find these guys, in a midget farm?




    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
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  5. Mercurius is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2002 1:16am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, KungFuDoesWork, how the **** exactly is a website titled "Journal of Chinese Martial Science" anti-Kung Fu? That's like making the title for the Al-qaeda training manual "How to Celebrate the 4th of July".

    Yeah, these people were small, but they were masters. They tried to pick their best guys because they weren't exactly Shoeless Joe Jackson throwing the game, no, they wanted Kung Fu to beat Muay Thai, but the best Kung Fu could do was last two rounds.

    As for the answer to your question, if you fired your staff of typing monkeys and took a few seconds to read my post, you'd remember I said "They used the same manner of Kung Fu which I'm talking about".

    These Kung Fu men, whom you seem so eager to ostracize and disparage as not representative of Kung Fu (just like our pal in the video here), got their asses handed to them. They fought, using Kung Fu. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that had something to do with how well they did. These Chinese fighters may not have been cut like the Thai boxers, but using a more effective style might have helped them last more than one round. In fact, our friend who managed to survive two rounds was actually 20 pounds heavier than his opponent.

    Was that site my "entire experience with kung fu"? Certainly not. Was that site my entire experience with shitty Kung Fu? No again, but it makes up a significant part of it, enough for me to decide that I'd leave people less concerned for their physical welfare in a fight to take up guards where their hair is better protected than their face.

    Jesus, man! I bet if Shi Yan Ming lost a fight, you'd say "He's not real Shaolin, he's not flexible, he could barely touch his toes..."

    Also, Braden. Don't be ridiculous, I'm sure it's much harder to imagine a Thai boxer starting like that than a Kung Fu man starting with one of his hands in a less than practical but aesthetically pleasing position. On the second point, I have no experience studying Tai Chi, but having been a martial artist for a while, you pick up things. I've seen Tai Chi done before, and what I'm saying is, any photo can show you a guy throwing a punch, but a video can show you a guy doing a fluent parry followed by throwing a punch.

    The last thing I want to do is judge good Kung Fu/CMA. I can dig Wing Chun being Bruce Lee's foundation for JKD, Tai Chi being Mas Oyama's only real defeat, Bagua's movement(hell, I'll be the first to admit Karate feels more like fencing when the sparring matches go back-and forth) and such.

    But like I've said before, I'm not going to listen to a guy that is giving me advice that will get me hit, nor will I fight in a way that is likely to have similar result. Presenting your leg to a Muay Thai guy so he can kick it from under you? Using only one hand to guard against MT's hand work? It's like poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick- you know not to do it yourself (well, Braden probably knows, but KFDW I'm not sure about) because someone did it before you and got hurt.

    Anyway, it's been a nice flamewar, boys. Almost regret starting it, but sometimes you forget there's bait on the pole, know what I'm saying? You all can have the last word if you like, I won't be needing it.



    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  6. Braden is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2002 4:17am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mercurius

    "Also, Braden. Don't be ridiculous, I'm sure it's much harder to imagine a Thai boxer starting like that than a Kung Fu man starting with one of his hands in a less than practical but aesthetically pleasing position."

    I'm not sure how to attack this statement since you never give any defense for it. The only obvious explanation is that you have difficulty imagining a Thai boxer starting like that because you're familiar enough with Thai boxing to know that they don't. Of course, the obvious corollary is that you're not familiar with kungfu, which is why you you have no problem imagining something which isn't true.

    Case in point, the 'one hand up in the air' posture which you accurately criticize as a guard position (the lower of the two pictures in your post on page two) isn't a guard picture at all, but rather the termination of a technique (exactly like a Thai boxer with one leg extended at temple height; which is why I used it as an analogy - also, this has allready been pointed out in this thread, but I'm assuming you missed it/misunderstood it/didn't believe it). I would have to have seen the movement, but movements I'm familiar with leading to such a posture are often used, for example, as rotary throws (kaitennage, puter kepala, etc) or scoops to throw off the opponent's mid-or-higher kick.

    "On the second point, I have no experience studying Tai Chi, but having been a martial artist for a while, you pick up things."

    It's unclear as to whether or how you feel this is an explanation or defense for the idea that you could adequately judge whether or not the individual in question was doing taiji; certainly, whether you're a more adequate judge of this than the individual's teacher who has studied for twenty years and feels it fits the criteria.

    "But like I've said before, I'm not going to listen to a guy that is giving me advice that will get me hit, nor will I fight in a way that is likely to have similar result."

    I'm sure no one has ever suggested otherwise. Looking back at the thread, it seems that you are the only one suggesting that these kungfu practitioners are advocating, for example, 'using only one hand to guard against MT's hand work'. Everyone else has been trying to explain (or certainly, I have) that this was simply a false impression you were under; perhaps with good reason.

    "Anyway, it's been a nice flamewar, boys. Almost regret starting it, but sometimes you forget there's bait on the pole, know what I'm saying? You all can have the last word if you like, I won't be needing it."

    I'm not sure where you got the impression our discussion was a flame war, or that it was the sort of situation where 'having the last word' was meaningfull. Again looking back over my posts, I can't see any instance where I've been confrontational, insulting, or condescending; only cases where I have disagreed with you, and outlined my disagreement directly, with ample evidence from available sources. I'm sorry if you got a different impression.

    Edited by - Braden on July 26 2002 04:24:29
  7. SifuAbel is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2002 10:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    excuse me but your dancing around the only question I really care about. Let me remind you of it:

    ["Personally, I've seen enough of "hit me in the face" Kung Fu to know that I won't be using it in a fight any time soon.

    BS meter ticking off the scale. Where? Who? This should be good. And please don't say delucia. That dog won't hunt. Please give us concrete, first hand, not seen on TV, experience.]

    This line seem to put your "experience" in perspective.

    "Was that site my entire experience with shitty Kung Fu? No again, but it makes up a significant part of it....."

    How significant? was in 80% ? 90%? You say you've "seen" tai chi done "once"? And you call that experience?
    HecK, if that monk lost in fight, one, It would probably be a heck of a fight. And two, at least it would be a real current topic to write about rather than an 80 year old event. How myopic can one person be? Geezus! Gu yi Chen was alive then, why aren't you talking about his fights? Or all the friggin lei tai matches that went before and after that?

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    Give to Haiti relief. text "haiti' to 90999
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  8. Wheels is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2002 10:49am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kungfudoeswork-
    Have you every seen Gracie in action??? All the examples in the world there. 1 and 2 I can post a link where you can buy them. Do yourself a favor man, let it go. Just let it go. It just isnt practical. I will say against someone who knows nothing it may (may) give you an advantage. Here we have evidenced many DIFFERENT styles of Kung fu against primarily grapplers only. God help these guys against a fully trained mma Thai/BJJ fighter.
  9. Wheels is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2002 10:55am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also I read somewhere that Braden trains in Bagua. I am interested to know where / with whom? I trained in VA under Bok Nam Park. Before I go into that I should say I got a lot of good strethching from Park. Some footwork I even found valuable / the stepping aspect. And have seen similarities in Muay Thai. I left Park to learn to fight. Real fighting. I train BJJ/Judo/Muay Thai and Greco. I have been in fights against kung fu practitioners (2)since then and will be glad to give you the account.
    Suffice it to say you need only watch Gracie in Action to know that Kung fu is not very practical.
  10. Streetfighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2002 11:21am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say that the artist is more important then the style in most situations, but those who train in a more realistic environment will be better when it gets real.
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