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  1. Mercurius is offline
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    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2002 7:46pm

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     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Braden, on that same site, just below the ones I posted, there was a picture of one of the Chinese fighters scrambling backwards as best he could in a low, immobile Shaolin stance. If I remember correctly, he lasted 2 rounds.

    Beyond that, what the picture looks like to me is one taken before the fight, as in the ref was waiting to drop the handkercheif or whatever. Presuming that, the pretty-looking stances the Kung Fu masters had at the time would likely be the stances they began the fight in. You could see it differently, but for what it's worth, that's what it looks like to me.

    And about that guy using Tai Chi in the MMA fight, I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't exactly look like he's "Grasping the Bird's Tail" or "Drawing the Bow" or somesuch. I'm not trying to disrespect Tai Chi by saying he's not doing Tai Chi; on the other hand, if he can apply Tai Chi concepts and training to an MMA fight and do well, more power to him and the art.

    You're right, I may not have much experiential authority on which to base broad statements about Kung Fu, but Kung Fu itself is a broad term. I can respect arts like Xingyi, Bagua, and Tai Chi, but at the same time hold a little contempt for blind faith in tradition and styles recommending the use of showy, impractical stances and techniques in a fight.

    That is, I can do that unless KFDW says I can't, since he's the authority on whether my beliefs are contradictory or not. *cough*

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  2. Braden is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2002 8:20pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "on that same site, just below the ones I posted, there was a picture of one of the Chinese fighters scrambling backwards as best he could in a low, immobile Shaolin stance."


    http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/kfvsmt06.jpg

    This picture?

    He's neither remarkably lower nor more immobile than his opponent, nor is he in the dramatic 'kungfu' poses you posted.

    "Beyond that, what the picture looks like to me is one taken before the fight, as in the ref was waiting to drop the handkercheif or whatever."

    Look closer. No ref. No ring. No crowd. Now look at the picture from the fight. Ref. Ring. Crowd.

    "Presuming that, the pretty-looking stances the Kung Fu masters had at the time would likely be the stances they began the fight in. You could see it differently, but for what it's worth, that's what it looks like to me."

    No worries, I hope it's cleared up now.

    "And about that guy using Tai Chi in the MMA fight, I'm sure you'll agree it doesn't exactly look like he's 'Grasping the Bird's Tail' or 'Drawing the Bow' or somesuch."

    He doesn't look like he's doing a pretty form for a good reason - because he's not. He's fighting. This is very clear to the taiji guys, I'm not sure why it's unclear to others.

    Everyone, we're talking about this: http://www.mixedmartialarts.ca/HTML/Rumble5/09JeremiahJason.htm

    What would you expect to see that's different from what is shown here? I really don't understand the complaint.

    "hold a little contempt for blind faith in tradition and styles recommending the use of showy, impractical stances and techniques in a fight."

    Same here. That's one of the reasons I train in bagua.



    Edited by - Braden on July 23 2002 20:21:32
  3. IntheKnow is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2002 11:46pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I truly don't consider the KF guy a good fighter or one with LITTLE to NO REAL Fighting experience. I still say it has more to do with the FIGHTER than the style.
    Thats no joke.

    Actually I know quite a bit about that fight, though I am surprised that you're all going on about it a year later.

    To clarify, the video didn't just happen to be taken, the owner of the studio, and the guy that put up the $5,000 for the KF guy shot the video as proof that the event happened, and then put it out on the net.

    The KF guy was trained by the owner of that studio, the owner being a master of san soo, (Though not a very well respected master, and pretty much held in contempt by the san soo world). The KF fighter, or KF clown. is or was a black belt, reputed to have been earned by watching lots of videos.

    The rest of the san soo world did not condone the event. And cringed as it was known through out that Sean Scott the KF guy was a very poor excuse as an example of Kung Fu SANSOO.

    Hope that helps out a bit.
  4. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2002 12:00am

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     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    KungFuDOesWork - from my experience in TMA (not KF!) forms are repetative and boring, were in you don't learn much at all, just an opinion.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  5. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2002 2:01am


     Style: Baboo Baby

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    KFDW

    The guys at that site did admit losses, against San Shou fighters.
  6. SifuAbel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2002 4:29am

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     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "from my experience in TMA (not KF!) forms are repetative and boring, were in you don't learn
    much at all, just an opinion."

    I have to admit there are really simple forms out there and some are made for the circus more than for fighting. BUT, even a simple form has something to teach. Its whole world of information ignored, just an opinion.

    Braden, don't bother with mercurious. His name should be merclueless. He's got such a hard on about kung fu he'd try to use anything he can regarless of context.

    "...did admit losses, against San Shou fighters."

    Gee, let me think for a second. San shou guys IN china, where are they coming from? Oh yes!, KUNG FU!!! If you're going to dive 50 years in the past to make a point then do better research. NEWS FLASH! San shou in china was done primarily by kung fu people. San Shou isn't a style. It's a venue like MMA.


    Izru, I'll go with 99% of your last statement. But a KF guy that only knows form work and isn't at least an OK fighter shouldn't be called Master.


    To get back to the topic, I veiwed a piece of the film again. The guy walked up to him with his hands to his sides! As if he were trying to stop a kid from passing him. This is just WRONG!! No guard, no defense, no balance, no follow up, no strategy, totally exposed, no form, standing stock straight, no stance, how this guy can be called a master of anything is beyond me. I don't care what he calls himself.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?

    Intheknow, thanks for the info. Interesting, but I think this guy needs his belt revoked. This was a true triumph against a mcdojo. But, some people want to use this as some all encompassing proof that isn't fair to others.

    Edited by - Kungfudoeswork on July 24 2002 04:36:10
    I am the biggest fucking wanker on the internet - Proven fact.
  7. SifuAbel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2002 4:42am

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     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Personally, I've seen enough of "hit me in the face" Kung Fu to know that I won't be using it in a fight any time soon."

    BS meter ticking off the scale. Where? Who? This should be good. And please don't say delucia. That dog won't hunt. Please give us concrete, first hand, not seen on TV, experience.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    I am the biggest fucking wanker on the internet - Proven fact.
  8. Izru is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2002 11:41am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I just meant that 90% of the time a guy who just knows the form IS called "master" =)
  9. SifuAbel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2002 3:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    saying "90% of the time" makes it sound like all those that know the form can't fight. I know you don't mean that but other will misread.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    I am the biggest fucking wanker on the internet - Proven fact.
  10. Mercurius is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2002 12:33am

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     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Braden, about that guy's stance, it's just conjecture but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that given the chance on the defensive, he'd resume the stance he had when he was posing. Also, you got me on that "ring/ref/crowd" deal, but as further conjecture I don't think it's unlikely that they would have used the same stances to begin the fight. As an outsider to Tai Chi, I guess it would be harder to see 'fighting Tai Chi' in just a photo, but with a video it might prove easier to pick out "that looks like a Tai Chi defense" or "that's an application of such and such technique".

    KungFuDoesWork, "Hit me in the face Kung Fu" is having a guard where you are:
    1) Placing one hand behind/above/beside your head,
    2) Placing your hands out of reflexive blocking distance of your face,
    3) Sticking your head out and handing your opponent red and white paint so he can draw a target on your face.

    1 and 2 are seen in the pictures on that site, 2 in an actual fight photo(the one on page 3 of this thread).

    You want concrete, first hand experience? Get your own concrete, first hand experience, I'm not using Grand Master Ling Ling's Pretty Panda-Fu in a fight and getting my ass kicked. I don't need concrete, first hand experience to know that getting hit in the balls with a baseball bat will hurt.

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
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