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  1. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2013 1:29am

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     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Try soaking it into light foam or other spongy material. The idea being that you could construct gloves with easily workable materials and relatively standar methods, then inject your Armor Water into the padded areas. The foam basically acting as a scafolding for the cells you want full of fluid. If this stuff can travel down a syringe without reacting you could even test the concept with a pair of foam gloves off the shelf.

    It would surely be easier construction-wise than trying to sew and maniuplate bags of syrup and allow you some control over volume and concentration.

    There are a couple of groups ahead of you on this liquid armor concept, but the upside is that they have probably found solutions to some of the chalenges you're running into. Check these out:

    Here's a paper about shear thickening fluids combined with Kevlar.
    http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ada433286

    D3O's website. They uses a dense, closed cell foam which behaves the same way as your syrup for sports padding.
    http://www.d3o.com/
    Last edited by Mr. Machette; 5/27/2013 1:33am at .
  2. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2013 9:48am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the substance gets harder on impact, does that mean it will get more solid with harder impact? That seems like something you wouldn't want in a glove if you're using it to hit someone else.
  3. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2013 11:31am


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Try soaking it into light foam or other spongy material. The idea being that you could construct gloves with easily workable materials and relatively standar methods, then inject your Armor Water into the padded areas. The foam basically acting as a scafolding for the cells you want full of fluid. If this stuff can travel down a syringe without reacting you could even test the concept with a pair of foam gloves off the shelf.

    It would surely be easier construction-wise than trying to sew and maniuplate bags of syrup and allow you some control over volume and concentration.

    There are a couple of groups ahead of you on this liquid armor concept, but the upside is that they have probably found solutions to some of the chalenges you're running into. Check these out:

    Here's a paper about shear thickening fluids combined with Kevlar.
    http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ada433286

    D3O's website. They uses a dense, closed cell foam which behaves the same way as your syrup for sports padding.
    http://www.d3o.com/
    That paper was actually what got me inspired to develop a fluid for martial arts. If I remember right, I believe they tried to stop a bullet with oobleck (cornstarch and water) on mythbusters, too. In my experience with this stuff, it does absorb energy well, but I think it is better suited to slower speeds and larger surface areas like a stick or a punch.

    As for D3O, they use sheer thickening fluids too, and I did contact them at the beginning of my development, but I don't think they're interested in divulging trade secrets (I don't believe we would be in direct competition, but I still don't blame them). There was also an american product called DEFLEXION from Dow Corning, but they have since discontinued it.

    And yea, that was kind of the idea... to incorporate it into the structure of some of today's standard gloves, but the standard designs need a couple tweaks first so they can handle the stuff. That is why I need to find a custom gear/glove guy.
  4. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2013 11:53am


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    If the substance gets harder on impact, does that mean it will get more solid with harder impact? That seems like something you wouldn't want in a glove if you're using it to hit someone else.
    Yes, although it's an elastic solid, so more like rubber than steel. I've found about a half inch of the material is perfect, because it gets hard on top, but still liquid on the bottom, so a lot of the energy is spent as the hard layer displaces the fluid underneath it.
  5. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2013 3:15pm

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     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Awesome View Post
    As for D3O, they use sheer thickening fluids too, and I did contact them at the beginning of my development, but I don't think they're interested in divulging trade secrets (I don't believe we would be in direct competition, but I still don't blame them).
    Oh yeah, there isn't a corporation on the planet that will give up the juicy details on their carefully engineered products. But you can get hints from their comercial offerings. E.I. developing moldable pannels or if there's a special style of stiching and quilting used to secure them.

    If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they figured out a way to impregnate polyeurethane or another two part foam with a blend similar to your juice. Kind of like the wet sponge idea, but compounded in the liquid state prior to being catalysed into foam.

    I can already see the difficulty in developing their special blend though. How much goop can you mix into the polyurethane before it's too dilluted to hold it's shape? If the foam holds it's mold, is there enough goop in it to react they way you want? Even worse, are the cemicals compatitble? Is there anything in the goop that will interfere with the catalyst? If so, what can be substituted?

    Imagine how much trial and error, chemical engineering and destructive testing you'd have to do to perfect their pads and you can see why they're so reluctant to talk about recipies.

    For you guys, it seems the real challenge is containing the juice in the shape you want. You need something tough and water proof. Sewing somthing with liquids in it and not letting the liquids out is a bit of a challenge right?

    I think your best bet would be to take inspiration from celular structures. Check out these honeycombs for instance:




    You can lay the cells horizontaly as long tubes, or vertically as a sheet of pockets with no gaps in protection between the cells (Similar to the air cushions in some sneaker soles). Make the celll mebranes from an impermiable material like rubber and you've got your containment. It won't squish out into weird places or pool under the influence of gravity. With the vertical cells you can even control the thickness with no weak seams between pockets of juice. You could heat seal them off into whatever 2D shape you want and leave enough of a seam around the edges to sew through. Get creative with quilting and layering and you can shore up any weak areas.

    A lightweight polymer plate over the nodes might also be a way to save on R&D. You could have quilted cells, but it would prevent any sharp edges or lucky blows from hitting a gap.

    You might realy have something here. Even if this stuff is heavier that the usual foam or kevlar, one thing the FMA world is missing is gaumtlets tough enough to protect well from a solid stick blow that aren't the size of goalie gloves. In fact, I either see guys using goalie gloves, or making some sort of comprimise with gear that's made from the usual foam or gell anyway (Soccer shin guards on forearms is popular around these parts...).

    Your stuff could be a big improvement even if it does come at the cost of a couple extra ounces is what I'm sayin'.

    AFA custom work; It might be hard and costly to have someone build a glove from the ground up for you. I highly sugest modifying existing products as proof of concept prototypes, then having yous custom guy solve the minor details (like fixing gaps). With a prototype in hand you could even go to the company that made the gear you've modified and see if they would be interested in working with you. (Get your patents straight first, of course!) A cheap source of garment labor is local art schools. If they have an apparel program you might be able to get interns.

    Don't give up out of frustration though. From an engineering standpoint, there are already answers to all your problems. The innovation in your design is a new material with specific chalenges but there are a number of existing solutions that can be applied to your liquid. All you need to do is connect those dots, wrangle the parts into the shape you want and sew them together. Still a big hill to get over, but there are guide posts all ove the place to help you along.

    Here's some "celular padding" design inspo and maybe a couple of things you could mod for experimentation:









    Good luck and have fun, man!
    Last edited by Mr. Machette; 5/27/2013 3:32pm at .
  6. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2013 5:42pm

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     Style: MMA

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am very curious. I make armor professionally, but it's mostly chainmail and the like for larpers and cosplayers, so I'm kind of on the other end of that spectrum. Nonetheless, I'm quite curious about your product, as I'd like to get into more high-tech and functional stuff eventually.
    My kung fu instructor and I have also been talking about collaborating on ideas for protective gear for swordfighting and stickfighting, and this might be quite useful for that.
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  7. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 9:32am


     Style: Hapkido

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    For you guys, it seems the real challenge is containing the juice in the shape you want. You need something tough and water proof. Sewing somthing with liquids in it and not letting the liquids out is a bit of a challenge right?
    Yes. Your ideas on cells are right on. We also need cells to keep things from getting too thin in some places and too thick in others (so horizontal is key). The real problem is if we add too much structure, we lose dexterity, and without the dexterity, we should just stick with foam or gels. D3O added a lot of structure to make it work... so much I'm not sure how much of the fluid advantage they still retain. Everything seems to come down to a fine balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    You might realy have something here. Even if this stuff is heavier that the usual foam or kevlar, one thing the FMA world is missing is gaumtlets tough enough to protect well from a solid stick blow that aren't the size of goalie gloves. In fact, I either see guys using goalie gloves, or making some sort of comprimise with gear that's made from the usual foam or gell anyway (Soccer shin guards on forearms is popular around these parts...).

    Your stuff could be a big improvement even if it does come at the cost of a couple extra ounces is what I'm sayin'.
    Yup, my own personal dissatisfaction with options for eskrima gloves really lead me to start looking into this. :)

    I appreciate the encouragement. I'll keep trying and keep posting.
  8. Dr_Awesome is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 9:39am


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    I am very curious. I make armor professionally, but it's mostly chainmail and the like for larpers and cosplayers, so I'm kind of on the other end of that spectrum. Nonetheless, I'm quite curious about your product, as I'd like to get into more high-tech and functional stuff eventually.
    My kung fu instructor and I have also been talking about collaborating on ideas for protective gear for swordfighting and stickfighting, and this might be quite useful for that.
    Do keep in mind that if you couple this stuff with rigid materials, like metals, you may end up losing the benefits of liquid padding, but if you have a design you think may benefit from the stuff, and you want to test it, let me know. I will warn you, though, the very advantages that make it unique also make it a pain in the butt to work with.
  9. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 11:45am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think you should talk to john ouano at http://ouano.com/

    he used to make the UFC gloves and made the shooto gloves. he is also a good guy, and is located in the US.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
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  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 3:03pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was part of the very, very early testing for this gear, which uses a similar substance:



    I don't think I've ever seen it applied to making protective gloves.
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