243651 Bullies, 4700 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 20
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    18,452

    Posted On:
    1/22/2015 2:28am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Shihan Dean Rostohar - Bujinkan Instructor Passing Kali off as Bujinkan

    This video was brought to the attention by a friend of mine who wanted to know if this was legitimate ninjutsu, because he felt it had a lot of Kali-feel to it. I've had the opportunity to train in a bit of Jinenkan and Bujinkan tantojutsu and tantodori, as well as teaching JKD Kali and trained in Inayan, Marcaida Kali, Pekiti Tersia, & Serrada Escrima.

    Here's the video he sent me.



    For comparison, here is what the Takamatsuden kata that Bujinkan tantojutsu is based on look like:



    Evidently, the instructor in this video, Shihan Dean Rostohar, maintains that all this material is Bujinkan, and doesn't have any Kali or FMA influence. He has evidently become the "Bujinkan Knife Guy", authorized by Hatsumi to teach Bujinkan knife fighting around the world.

    Here is another video of Shihan Rostohar teaching knife.



    And here is another video of orthodox Takamatsuden tantojutsu kata.



    The following video is the video that shows the clearest FMA. It's all Hubud. Hubud is an essential FMA drill, found in countless forms of FMA...and nowhere in the Japanese arts.



    If Shihan Rostohar has modified Bujinkan tantojutsu with FMA concepts, that would be one issue, and one Bullshido would not have a problem with.

    However, if he is actually covering up that this material is highly based (almost entirely) on FMA...
    Last edited by DerAuslander; 1/22/2015 2:35am at .
  2. Fuzzy is online now
    Fuzzy's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,052

    Posted On:
    1/22/2015 4:29am


     Style: FMA/MMA(ish)/HEMA

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For what its worth I'll go ahead and confirm that that's definitely FMA.
  3. Plasma is online now
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido Administrator

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Deutschland
    Posts
    7,315

    Posted On:
    1/22/2015 5:43am

    staff
     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And I'll confirm that those movement do not exist in any of the Takamatsu-den Ryu-Ha.

    I have trained and sparred with many Kali & JKD knife people over the years and my Japanese Tantojutsu has a few similar movements but overall very different than what is taught in FMA.
  4. Chili Pepper is online now
    Chili Pepper's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,308

    Posted On:
    1/22/2015 9:15am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    8
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The first video has at least a little Booj movement to it, but otherwise, yeah, all FMA.

    Who wants to just be a guro, when you can be a 15th-dan ninja spec ops warrior?
  5. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    18,452

    Posted On:
    1/22/2015 1:42pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    The first video has at least a little Booj movement to it, but otherwise, yeah, all FMA.

    Who wants to just be a guro, when you can be a 15th-dan ninja spec ops warrior?
    The issue is not so much that he's trained in Kali and also Bujinkan, but that he and his followers are saying this is all Bujinkan.
  6. jspeedy is offline
    jspeedy's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,680

    Posted On:
    1/22/2015 3:25pm


     Style: FMA

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Saw this thread on that other ma forum, lots of turds there. The issue is, where does the guy claim it's all ninjutsu? That's debatable. The other forum idiots (other thread, other site) have read too much Bruce Lee. The whole "if it's effective, who cares where it came from" is beside the point if the instructor is misleading students to think they'll learn that in ninjutsu.
  7. Styygens is offline
    Styygens's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,174

    Posted On:
    1/23/2015 2:15pm


     Style: JJJ/JKD/Kali/Combatives

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let's talk about this video as background:



    This is Jinen Ryu Tantojutsu from the Jinenkan headed by Manaka. In this X-Kan, techniques are named Jinen Ryu when they are derived from the original Takamatsuden ryuha, but not part of them, or draw on his other martial arts training. This website provides an essay specifically about tantojutsu in Jinen Ryu:
    http://www.jinenkan-ottawa.com/tantojutsu.html

    Here's the paragraph I find most relevant:
    When Manaka Sensei created the Jinen Ryu, he faced the challenge of understanding the principles of the weapon, but needing a syllabus of formal kata to teach from. Realizing that moving the whole body, and not focusing solely on the knife, was the key, he drew on Koto Ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu (in which he has menkyo-kaiden license) for the body movement. Striking with the knife involves essentially the same movements as unarmed strikes. Manaka Sensei placed the highest importance on muto (“no sword”); since using a short knife to intercept an opponent’s weapon is almost impossible, moving the body as if unarmed is a better approach. The result is Jinen Ryu Tantojutsu.
    I bolded the two most interesting statements. He needed a syllabus of formal kata, and he based the movements on Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu. This sounds like formal kata for tanto did not already exist within the Takamatsuden; and specifically not within Koto or Gyokko Ryu.

    About ten years ago, I started looking for tantojutsu within the Bujinkan, and ultimately came to the conclusion then that no coherent system of tantojutsu existed.

    Let's start with the source, Hatsumi, and his Knife and Pistol book



    In this book, Hatsumi shows a series of knife versus knife techniques. The English translation says they are based on Koto Ryu movement. I can't imagine why Hatsumi would choose to demonstrate techniques "based on" a ryu if he had a formal syllabus available in some ryu. I'm not aware of any video in which Hatsumi demonstrates tanto kata -- if someone else is, please let me know.

    Stephen Hayes drops knife techniques into many of his early books. To my knowledge, none of them are attributed to a specific ryu, although this was during the period in which everything was related back to Togakure Ryu. I briefly looked through the books and none of his techniques resemble Rostohar's. The Hayes techniques tend to be drawn out and angular (in fact, what you might expect from Koto Ryu or Kukishin Ryu movement).

    Jack Hoban's book on tantojutsu form the 1980's...

    was really about unarmed knife defense and the psychology of dealing with the knife. No in-depth, tantojutsu, knife-on-knife technique here...

    Bud Malmstrom wrote a Black Belt Magazine article on the same topic of unarmed knife defense which was collected in The Ultimate Guide to Knife Combat:



    I have taken several seminars with Malmstrom regarding the use of the knife and asked him many questions about knife technique. As I understand it, he developed his knife fighting method after sparring with opponents versed in FMA. Malmstrom's method uses what is best described as a modified Ichimonji kamae that blades the body and puts your own knife between you and the opponent. The movement is consistent with what's already been described above: angular and circular, Koto and Gyokko Ryuha, and very much in the Japanese style. The strategy of using the knife, however, borrows from Defanging the Snake and involves intercepting the opponent's attacking limb.

    Shoto Tanemura's book Ninpo Secrets includes a Genbukan view of tantojutsu...



    The few included techniques are substantially the same as the Bujinkan techniques and characteristically JMA movement. Plasma is the Genbukan expert and may know more, but this book didn't challenge my growing belief that there simply was no coherent system of specific tantojutsu in the Takamatsuden. In fact, after reading this book, I came away with the conviction that knife technique in the Takamatsuden probably borrowed heavily from short sword technique and muto dori. Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu, in fact, include short sword muto dori techniques in their later sections.

    As I was still interested in tantojutsu, and fast running out of potential [legit] sources, I ordered the Tantojutsu VHS (yes, it was awhile ago...) from Bugei Trading Company which showcased Don Angier and Yanagi Ryu technique. I liked this video, although it's a little dated now. Generally speaking, the demonstrated techniques showed recognizably JMA movement and I could easily follow them. The techniques tend to be short and pretty direct, and drawing the tanto, redirecting the attack, and then targetting some vital spot. For the most part, the target would've been valid whether or not the opponent was wearing armor.

    I have also watched James Williams demonstrate his related Nami Ryu tanto techniques and they are very similar and recognizably Japanese in movement.

    I've watched a lot of tantojutsu techniques over the years -- and as you might guess, some are of dubious origin. This Ogawa Ryu video is one of those...


    What's interesting is that it still looks like it was derived from Japanese martial arts techniques. I may not be able to verify it as authentic, but I'm prepared to say it is a JMA-derivative of some sort.

    This, on the other hand:



    Bears no relation to any of the tantojutsu -- good, bad, verified authentic, or unverified -- that I've trained or watched. It is not what was taught in the Bujinkan ten years ago as "knife technique" and more importantly, it doesn't even look like a direct evolution from the Bujinkan of ten years ago.

    It does look like the FMA Hubud I've trained over the past five years or so.
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    Fear is the only darkness.

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Work
    Posts
    9,073

    Posted On:
    1/24/2015 12:19am

    supporting member
     Style: 無木兔

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Bujinkan philosophy has always been based on theft. They've stolen so much from other JMA, is it really that surprising they'd steal from outside?

    “A good martial artist must be able to ‘steal‘ the information he/she is learning in order to adapt that ‘feeling‘ to their own taijutsu. Interpret and understand what it is all about, including all the secrets that are subtlties so small you cannot always see them!”
    - Hatsumi

    I watched a Kacem Zhougari video recently where he talked about the importance of students "stealing technique" vs. being taught it.

    I guess in some cases it's literal. "Shinobi" sometimes means "to steal" doesn't it?

    Fucking ninjas. Watch your back.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/24/2015 12:25am at .
  9. Styygens is offline
    Styygens's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,174

    Posted On:
    1/25/2015 12:50pm


     Style: JJJ/JKD/Kali/Combatives

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Some more for comparison...

    I've been looking for more tantojutsu videos for comparison purposes...

    This is a video uploaded by a Bujinkan school in Argentina four years ago. I do not recognize all the techniques, but I have had several of the techniques taught to me by other Bujinkan teachers.



    Here's a Bujinkan video uploaded one year ago. The first minute or so looks like someone applying typical Budo Taijutsu Kamae and tai sabaki to using a knife. That's fairly standard practice with any weapon in Bujinkan, even if the weapon has traditional kata. Just after the minute mark, however, we see a drill that bears a strong resemblance to FMA Hubud (with a hybridized JMA/FMA footwork I recognize -- because I do it too), but not a Hubud drill I've personally seen. But sure enough at about 1:20, it turns into a Hubud drill I recognize. Interesting...


    How about some other JMA (or JMA-derived) tantojutsu styles to compare the kind of movement?

    I mentioned Don Angier and Yanagi Ryu in my previous post, but didn't post a video. Here's a video showing the Aikijujutsu of Yanagi Ryu and the related Tantojutsu (starting around 2:25 or so)



    And James Williams is advertising his more modern approach to tanto for a DVD series:


    Here's a video from the user BUDO, who apparently is demonstrating Heian Ryu (no idea about the origin or provenance of the school) which clearly demonstrates JMA-type movement and footwork:

    (As an added bonus to this video, you can cringe about the instructor using what appears to be a live knife in a kydex sheath for a training tool...)
    Last edited by Styygens; 1/25/2015 12:58pm at .
  10. Styygens is offline
    Styygens's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,174

    Posted On:
    1/25/2015 12:54pm


     Style: JJJ/JKD/Kali/Combatives

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If only there was a video clearly demonstrating the JMA approach to knife and then breaking down the FMA approach?
    Oh, wait...

    (And, of course there are Navy SEALs involved. It's always better with Navy SEALs.)

    One thing I've learned is that there are a lot of really bad tantojutsu videos on YouTube, and mixing it with FMA is clearly a trend. Maybe because there is so much interest in using the knife, and so few remaining legitimate tantojutsu schools.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.