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  1. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2013 10:10am

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    Don't listen to the naysayers about the double action pull. If you learn to shoot well with a long pull, you'll be even better with a single action pull.
    You can place trigger pull wherever you like in your hierarchy of importance for pistol features but Glock triggers and most factory triggers on double action pistols just flat out suck. If you want to dismiss the impact that a 6 or 7 pound trigger pull can have on shootability, okay. I can't agree with that though.

    The triggers in the vast majority of these modern double action pistols are not designed with the shooter's best interest in mind. They're designed with cost savings and liability mitigation in mind.

    I know you're an experienced shooter and are capable of comparing the features of various weapons and deciding the trade offs you're willing to make. Actually, I'd probably agree with your choices at the end of the day. A Glock will be with me when I leave the house today.

    But how many people here are capable of making that comparison? Most of them couldn't appreciate the difference in shootability between a custom 1911 and a Ruger LCP. For that reason, I think trigger pull is worth discussing. Otherwise, ignorance prevails.
  2. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2013 9:13pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    You can place trigger pull wherever you like in your hierarchy of importance for pistol features but Glock triggers and most factory triggers on double action pistols just flat out suck. If you want to dismiss the impact that a 6 or 7 pound trigger pull can have on shootability, okay. I can't agree with that though.

    The triggers in the vast majority of these modern double action pistols are not designed with the shooter's best interest in mind. They're designed with cost savings and liability mitigation in mind.

    I know you're an experienced shooter and are capable of comparing the features of various weapons and deciding the trade offs you're willing to make. Actually, I'd probably agree with your choices at the end of the day. A Glock will be with me when I leave the house today.

    But how many people here are capable of making that comparison? Most of them couldn't appreciate the difference in shootability between a custom 1911 and a Ruger LCP. For that reason, I think trigger pull is worth discussing. Otherwise, ignorance prevails.
    That is a good point. I'm coming from the perspective that at pistol ranges, you can still train very well to fire with heavy or longer triggers. If I could have it my way, I'd like to see all of the DA only pistols come in sub 8lb pulls. long pulls have a place in my armory (concealed carry, esp revolvers), but I don't think heavy pulls are really necessary.

    In rifles it is a different story, as you know (and actually, you're probably more experienced for precision rifle shooting; I'm just getting my feet wet with that stuff, coming from iron sights and tactical rifles).
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  3. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    That is a good point. I'm coming from the perspective that at pistol ranges, you can still train very well to fire with heavy or longer triggers. If I could have it my way, I'd like to see all of the DA only pistols come in sub 8lb pulls. long pulls have a place in my armory (concealed carry, esp revolvers), but I don't think heavy pulls are really necessary.

    In rifles it is a different story, as you know (and actually, you're probably more experienced for precision rifle shooting; I'm just getting my feet wet with that stuff, coming from iron sights and tactical rifles).

    Sure, and likewise, I don't want to overstate my preference for a lighter trigger. It's just one factor of many. Gunsmithing is my focus currently, so I'm all about paying attention to the tiniest details of the gear. But of course, gear isn't the most important aspect of shooting, by a long shot.

    In fact, I've got another much larger beef about pistol training at the moment which I'd be interested in getting your thoughts on. Periodically, I have an opportunity to train with some guys from a local police department. I know for a fact these guys train with their pistols a lot. Way more than me.

    The first time I joined them, I expected to be way behind the curve but what actually happened was that I basically shot circles around every one of them. I believe the difference is that when I was taught to shoot a pistol I was taught to focus on the fundamentals - sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, etc. It appears to me that their training has been focused too much on the mechanics rather than the fundamentals.

    Here's what I mean. They all look like fucking ninjas when they're shooting. Like a John Woo movie or some ****. The latest, greatest super high speed stances. Fancy schmancy magazine changes. Snatching that pistol out of the holster like greased lightning. Brother, let me tell you they look badass. And can't hit ****.

    I mean, it's sad. I can accept that there's a tradeoff between speed and precision but damn. They do okay when their target is three feet away. And I understand that's where a lot of their encounters will happen, but not all of them. These guys could empty a whole fucking magazine at a stationary clay pidgeon 10 yards away and it would still be sitting there shining like a new penny.

    I see this trend a lot, and not just with pistols. It's the same thing with a lot of these tactical carbine courses, I think. They teach the guys to shoot under cars, with their off hand, holding the rifle between their knees to reload with one hand, laying upside down, everything under the sun. And that's all well and good for somebody to expand their skills when they can already shoot. But it seems to me marksmanship fundamentals are often being neglected in favor of slick mechanics these days.

    I'd be interested to hear your take on the subject.
  4. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
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    I've noticed the same thing. My brother has had all the tier-one tactical training in the world. He was part of a security detail for a nuclear power plant a the height of 9/11 paranoia. he trained 10 hours a week and did Miles-gear scenario training with Navy SEALs and other special ops groups every month. He had all the training is my point.

    He could draw faster, shoot faster, reload faster, and shoot from many more positions than I could. But he couldn't shoot a 2-inch group at ten yards with a pistol to save his life. With an AR-15 he could hit a man-sized target all day long at 300 yards, but he couldn't hit a crab-apple at 75. I can ping a 10-inch steel at 75 yards with my revolver, he couldn't even find the range.

    I've often wondered about who would be more effective. I have to assume his training was more geared towards combat-effectiveness, but part of me still says accuracy is king.

    This may warrant it's own thread...
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2013 8:42am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    I've noticed the same thing. My brother has had all the tier-one tactical training in the world. He was part of a security detail for a nuclear power plant a the height of 9/11 paranoia. he trained 10 hours a week and did Miles-gear scenario training with Navy SEALs and other special ops groups every month. He had all the training is my point.

    He could draw faster, shoot faster, reload faster, and shoot from many more positions than I could. But he couldn't shoot a 2-inch group at ten yards with a pistol to save his life. With an AR-15 he could hit a man-sized target all day long at 300 yards, but he couldn't hit a crab-apple at 75. I can ping a 10-inch steel at 75 yards with my revolver, he couldn't even find the range.

    I've often wondered about who would be more effective. I have to assume his training was more geared towards combat-effectiveness, but part of me still says accuracy is king.

    This may warrant it's own thread...

    Yeah, to be honest I learned some things I want to work on from training with those guys. It never hurts to be a little slicker or smoother. I just don't think you want to build a house on a shitty foundation.
  6. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2013 8:57am

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    New thread started.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2013 4:00pm

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    You know, that is interesting. It would explain why you always hear about a shootout with cops either killed or the suspect getting away unscathed.

    Edit:
    You guys are going to make me take that gun back and get a better one NOW.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 8/12/2013 4:12pm at .
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2013 4:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post

    You guys are going to make me take that gun back and get a better one NOW.
    Nah man, you're good. I'm a gear snob. The best thing you can do is take that pistol and wear it slam out at the range.
  9. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2013 4:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have much useful input but the same rant as you. I was watching a bit on LAPD SWAT. Supposed to be the best in the country. There was a clip showing the officer who was the guy they were featuring firing at targets with his Kimber LAPD SWAT custom 1911. He looked sloooow. Some targets he would miss. WTF! I could do everything he was doing with my Beretta Nano.

    I totally know what you are talking about. I know most LEO's I've met weren't that good at shooting, and the few I've met who were into guns were a much better than the other guys. The best are the guys I've met at my local matches. (IDPA expert and above)

    I think it has been covered in another thread. On how most police agencies don't have the resources, nor do the officers have the time, to sufficiently train marksmanship, since shooting a gun is actually a small part of their job.

    Don't forget though, many of us here in the Armory are really into guns. And being martial artists too, we take our shooting seriously. Well, I don't take it as seriously as I should, but I still try to improve myself every time I am at the trigger of a weapon. I don't remember the last time I just blasted downrange.

    Then there is the whole discussion about 'real life shooting is different than competition shooting.' Which to me it sounds like a different version of 'sport fighting isn't the street' Tell that to Mr. Ayoob.

    Actually, I'm gonna go start a thread on that last bit, after I ship out my SA 1911 that I've been trying to sell for ages... lol
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