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  1. strikistanian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 2:32pm


     Style: Cage Fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I get what you are saying, and I wrote the bit about the knives knowing it's on the edge of credibility/sense.

    Unarmed defense against a knife is kinda low percentage...how much effort is needed in training to really make a difference ? I don't know, personally. I would think it would be a lot and that a SOLID base in unarmed fighting would be a huge help.

    So, the logic is (and logic does not equal being right), why spend a lot of time on knife defense (unarmed knife defense), if it's very low percentage although knives are common and very dangerous, yet, the chance of running into someone with some sort of MMA/BJJ/Boxing/Muy Thai/wrestling experience is high?

    High risk/high chance of occurence (need for knife defense) equals needing more time to train, BUT, there are perhaps a lot of basics to cover before getting there?
    Hmm that's an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered.

    Though, I don't think the chances of running into a competent combat sport practitioner in scenario that you couldn't walk away from are particularly high either.

    As an aside, one of my friends from high school (who is now a bouncer) has been in a LOT of fights involving knives. In many of them, he was unarmed. His arms and body are scarred to hell, but he's done alright for himself otherwise. Interestingly enough, he practiced mostly traditional martial arts.

    I don't know how much this speaks to the efficacy of knife disarms, though, because this guy is a freak of nature and is most likely the exception that proves the rule
  2. Zod is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 5:36pm


     Style: Weight Lifting,Combatives

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I think I'd be more worried about the BJJ blue belt gone bad than a knife attack...or the bipolar ammy MMA'er with some training and a couple of fights under his belt.
    Just to clarify, do you think that you're more likely to run into a poorly socialized blue belt than you are to be on the receiving end of a knife attack or do you think that a poorly socialized blue belt is more dangerous than a knife attack?
  3. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 7:03pm

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    Hmm that's an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered.

    Though, I don't think the chances of running into a competent combat sport practitioner in scenario that you couldn't walk away from are particularly high either.

    As an aside, one of my friends from high school (who is now a bouncer) has been in a LOT of fights involving knives. In many of them, he was unarmed. His arms and body are scarred to hell, but he's done alright for himself otherwise. Interestingly enough, he practiced mostly traditional martial arts.

    I don't know how much this speaks to the efficacy of knife disarms, though, because this guy is a freak of nature and is most likely the exception that proves the rule

    Unless effective striking is a major componant in his knife defence. Then you can train high percentage unarmed and have better knife defence at the same time.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  4. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 7:07pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    Hmm that's an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered.

    Though, I don't think the chances of running into a competent combat sport practitioner in scenario that you couldn't walk away from are particularly high either.

    As an aside, one of my friends from high school (who is now a bouncer) has been in a LOT of fights involving knives. In many of them, he was unarmed. His arms and body are scarred to hell, but he's done alright for himself otherwise. Interestingly enough, he practiced mostly traditional martial arts.

    I don't know how much this speaks to the efficacy of knife disarms, though, because this guy is a freak of nature and is most likely the exception that proves the rule
    I don't know how many fights involve knives. A bouncer at a busy place might well see a lot of fights and hence more knives involved. I also don't really know an answer, I'm just throwing ideas out for discussion.

    Regarding a competent combat sports practicioner. I wasnt' even thinking of someone particularly competent, although I think it could happen. Lots of people are dabbling in modern combat sports. How much skill does it take to hurt someone if the attacker has some skill? Judging from the rate of injuries we see in novice judo classes (the saying is the most dangerous thing in Judo is a young adult male orange belt, LOL). They know just enough to hurt you (badly) but don't have the fine control needed to be really safe. and those are accidental injuries.

    I'd go with the freak of nature scenariou. Plus, if the knives are already out and he's breaking up a fight, that is not so much a self defense scenario in my opinion.

    My primary judo coach for several years had a lot of knife scars, none of which were ever sewn up. He had survived quite a few knife attacks in his younger years, among other things. He was in the "freak of nature" category, with incredibly quick reflexes, plus tall with a long reach, and pretty much fearless for whatever reason.

    We practiced gun disarms, really, though, I guess he was demonstrating them to me one night, plus knife defenses. He never really trained me in them. I tried my best to get off a shot at him (with a unloaded 1911), but never could. Same with a dull knife...I never touched him.

    So, it's possible, but again, how much effort at what sort of training is best (for the whole knife attack scenario thing)? I don't know...

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 7:13pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zod View Post
    Just to clarify, do you think that you're more likely to run into a poorly socialized blue belt than you are to be on the receiving end of a knife attack or do you think that a poorly socialized blue belt is more dangerous than a knife attack?
    In my world, a person with some sort of combat sport training is the more likely opponent. As in a high school or collegiate wrestler (former).

    I think the knife attack is more dangerous of course. However, having seen a few hand to hand encounters between pissed off guys, the blows often don't stop after one guy has clearly lost. So getting head kicked/stomped can be pretty serious regardless of lack of edged weapons.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 7:14pm

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    I actually am a believer that sport training =/= self defense.

    The martial arts are the tools and how we wield them needs to be modified for each situation we find ourselves in. What you do in the ring may not be what's best for a scenario outside of it.

    The way I see it, there are two legitimate archetypes in this "street vs sport" debate. There are the fighters and there are the survivalists.

    Fighters are, as the title implies, good at fighting. When it comes to throwing down, these are the guys that come out on top. Fighters are molded by sport training, or at the minimum, sport methodology. You can't gain competency in fighting without lots and lots of sparring against fully-resistant partners.

    On the other hand, there are the survivalists. These guys spend lots of time doing scenario drilling and practicing aspects of self defense before and after the fight, as well as the fight itself. Because their time is divided between the fight itself and other components of self defense scenarios, survivalists aren't as good at FIGHTING as fighters, but will often be more mentally and strategically prepared for dangerous encounters.

    The ideal would obviously be a mix of the two -- someone who is both competent when fists are flying, but is also well-versed in threat recognition, avoidance, deescalation, etc. Unfortunately, time is finite, and people will usually fall on one side of the line or the other.

    That being said, here's why sport training is superior for both fighting and self defense:

    It's simple enough to tack on self defense skills pertaining to perception of danger, the early stages of confrontation, and what to do after its over to someone who is competent in fighting. On the other hand, it's a lot more difficult to teach someone who is strategically prepared how to fight.

    There's a guy from my gym who came in with 5 years of Krav Maga under his belt. At his school, he was considered a heavy hitter. To their credit, that Krav place does tons of hard sparring, rolling, and live drilling. When this guy went against anyone who had a couple of fights under their belt, he got dismantled. That being said, I have no doubt that he would know how to escape some bad scenarios, in which some of us fighters would be clueless.

    I consider both camps (fighter and survivalist) to be legitimate. The problem is that most of the dipshits in the "sport vs street" debate don't fall into either category. It's usually some McDojo guy thinking that dead-drilling a few eye gouges or dirty moves is quality self defense training, and now he could take on Anderson Silva in a "real" fight.
    Depends what is discussed.

    Siuational awarness.
    Ambush and counter ambush.
    Use of force and the law.
    weapons.

    rather than

    jab vs eye gouge.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 7:32pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    I don't know how much this speaks to the efficacy of knife disarms, though, because this guy is a freak of nature and is most likely the exception that proves the rule
    I cannot count the number of times I've been told that what I do "works only because of my size" (and--even funnier--by nightclub-security standards, I'm average-sized at best).

    The size (and general fitness-conditioning, just so we're not discussing fat-size here) parts of the equation have had little mention in this thread. An individual can be a lifelong strength-trainer or other individual who has to work through (and therefore get used to ignoring) a lot of pain. Being well-conditioned and strength-trained can be useful in a number of ways, both physical and psychological, when dealing with scenarios involving belligerents.

    This dimension of training might be a useful addition to the other factors being discussed.
  8. Holy Moment is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2013 7:44pm

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