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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Postulate: Good martial arts teach you how to fight effectively in their respective ranges.

    Corollary 1: Good -ing -un teaches you to fight effectively in the standing range.

    Corollary 2: Bad -ing -un does not teach you to fight effectively in the standing range.

    Caveat: You must actually fight (spar) in an alive manner to answer the question whether you can fight.

    We're done here.
    So Muay Thai is in the standup/clinch range. Say I'm a guy with a wrestling and boxing background looking for a good MT teacher. I find a guy who can effectively handle this range by doing regular boxing, then once he gets in the clinch does some greco throws. It's solid fighthing, but it's missing exactly the thing I was looking for.

    Can anybody at least try to answer the OP?

  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We define bad MA all the same way:
    If the guy throws a "1-2" punch and his body falls forward leaving his forehead exposed, we know it's bad boxing/MT/etc.
    If a guy throws a round kick by ducking his head forward and flailing his arms out like a chicken attempting flight, we call that bad MT/kickboxing/etc.
    If a guy does a shoot with his nose to the sky... you get the idea.

    If you want to define someones fight prowess, just look at their basics. The WC guy in question probably has phenomenal chi sao, but can't fight a boxer to save his life. A good boxer may suck at chi sao, so his goal is to NOT let the WC guy get to chi sao position. Same goes for WC. Don't get in the way of the judo man's throw, or the Thai boxers round kick, etc.

  3. #23
    jnp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalavic View Post
    How do we define �bad� wingchun now? You see a guy. He says he's done wingchun for several years. Which criteria would you use to tell if his wingchun sucks?

    You could nitpick with things like how his toes are pointing, whether he was taught the same as you, but what does that matter compared to say, someone who is doing the same way as you but has only learned for a couple of months, or someone who had done nothing but reading a couple books and practicing with his sister. What is the defining line? Is there one we could agree on?
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Postulate: Good martial arts teach you how to fight effectively in their respective ranges.

    Corollary 1: Good -ing -un teaches you to fight effectively in the standing range.

    Corollary 2: Bad -ing -un does not teach you to fight effectively in the standing range.

    Caveat: You must actually fight (spar) in an alive manner to answer the question whether you can fight.

    We're done here.
    Quote Originally Posted by kalavic View Post
    So Muay Thai is in the standup/clinch range. Say I'm a guy with a wrestling and boxing background looking for a good MT teacher. I find a guy who can effectively handle this range by doing regular boxing, then once he gets in the clinch does some greco throws. It's solid fighthing, but it's missing exactly the thing I was looking for.

    Can anybody at least try to answer the OP?
    I'm not going to consider or discuss street fights in the post below for common sense reasons.

    Let's use hypothetical guy, -ing -un patient zero, or WC-0, if you will.

    If WC-0 can take what he has learned from his sifu and utilize it effectively in the standing range against an unfamiliar and non-compliant opponent, then it is, by my definition, good -ing -un. This is also dependent on there being a decent sample size of sparring sessions to reference. The "I had a bad day" factor can only be eliminated through repetition.

    If WC-0 can not do this over an acceptable sample range of sparring sessions, then his -ing -un is bad.

    Simple enough?



    This all hinges on WC-0 seeking out training partners that he/she does not train with on a regular basis. I realize this is something of an elephant in the room, but I apply the same metric to any martial art that I personally judge to be effective in a martial sense.

    If you do not test yourself against the unknown, how can you truly know if the tools you possess actually work?

    Does that answer your question?

  4. #24
    bobyclumsyninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalavic View Post
    It's solid fighthing, but it's missing exactly the thing I was looking for.

    Can anybody at least try to answer the OP?
    Are you asking permission to LARP? Feel free, just know what you're doing (or not doing) and learning (or not learning).

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Are you asking permission to LARP? Feel free, just know what you're doing (or not doing) and learning (or not learning).

    You have to fall down now.. my bong sau stopped your right hook and then I chain punched you, so you have to fall down.

  6. #26
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kalavic View Post
    So Muay Thai is in the standup/clinch range. Say I'm a guy with a wrestling and boxing background looking for a good MT teacher. I find a guy who can effectively handle this range by doing regular boxing, then once he gets in the clinch does some greco throws. It's solid fighthing, but it's missing exactly the thing I was looking for.
    What do you want, a Kung fu movie?
    Can anybody at least try to answer the OP?
    Can you stop hedging and tell us what you want? Yes, you are playing games now.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    What do you want, a Kung fu movie?

    Can you stop hedging and tell us what you want? Yes, you are playing games now.
    I don't know about you, but I'd want a thai instructor who could tear someone up with his knees and elbows from the clinch in addition to boxing skills. The wrestling skills would be a nice bonus. If he didn't have well conditioned shins I'd turn the other way.

    I'm trying to establish a second bar for wing chun, in addition to the one that we've already established, so as to not disclude from conversation all but the 1% who meet the criteria to be considered respectable martial artists. Hell, Ip Man and his students wouldn't make that bar.

    I enjoy being able to talk with people who can comfortably discuss the limitations of themselves and their system.

  8. #28
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kalavic View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'd want a thai instructor who could tear someone up with his knees and elbows from the clinch in addition to boxing skills. The wrestling skills would be a nice bonus. If he didn't have well conditioned shins I'd turn the other way.

    I'm trying to establish a second bar for wing chun, in addition to the one that we've already established, so as to not disclude from conversation all but the 1% who meet the criteria to be considered respectable martial artists. Hell, Ip Man and his students wouldn't make that bar.

    I enjoy being able to talk with people who can comfortably discuss the limitations of themselves and their system.
    Why talk about lowering the bar? Sorry, that's stupid and led to the problems you are trying to rehash.


    There is no set " we've established" about wing chun. It is about holding all arts to an across the board standard. No, I do not agree with southpaw. Wing Chun isn't about being a tough mother fucker for it to work effectively. It's about training like a tough mother fucker. There are thousands of shitty BJJers out there, but they must train the same as a top tier fighter. Now, they may hedge, cheat, quit or not put in the same effort, but the average Joe can train like Jones or Anderson.

    The same cannot be said for many arts including Wing Chun.

  9. #29

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    My thoughts exactly! When someone asks me if they should do wingchun, I say something like:

    If you want to, go for it. Just spend your time DOING wing chun AGAINST wing chun and KNOW that it's just wing chun. Don't waste your time with hypothetical nonsense about how it's going to perform against something else. If you want to actually be able to use it, you're probably on your own unless you strike lightning and find a place that actually does real fighting, in which case, tell me.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Are you asking permission to LARP? Feel free, just know what you're doing (or not doing) and learning (or not learning).
    My thoughts exactly! When someone asks me if they should do wingchun, I say something like:

    If you want to, go for it. Just spend your time DOING wing chun AGAINST wing chun and KNOW that it's just wing chun. Don't waste your time with hypothetical nonsense about how it's going to perform against something else. If you want to actually be able to use it, you're probably on your own unless you strike lightning and find a place that actually does real fighting, in which case, tell me.

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