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  1. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 1:05pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    .....
    ....
    ....
    ....
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Do boxing.
    ^ this and post less too.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 1:15pm

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    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL.

    Wing Chun is criticized for the theories, anecdotes and essays EVERY ONE of you nutriders create about DA STREET. I also love how every "bad" wing chun school has "complicated techniques" when compared to "MY GOOD CHUN" school. No, minus a few schools, almost all schools use the same techniques.

    First off, it isn't ridiculed for not having a ground game. It is ridiculed for coming up with,

    Garbage like this:

    Trash like this*: (Two Chunners MASTERS GRAPPLING):


    Oh and long dead irradiated bullshit like this:
    Wing Chun is often criticised in MMA for its absence of ground-fighting techniques. But Wing Chun wasn't made for modern MMA. If attacked on the street, I wouldn't want to go to the ground and grapple against a stronger opponent, waiting for him to pull a hidden knife on me or for his friends to use my head as a trampoline. If faced with a swinging bully, I'd want to block his attacks, or break the distance and stun him with a flurry of chain punches, then use the initiative to run away and have a good cry in the safety of my own home. Hardcore street-fighting, MMA and self-defence for the average Joe - who primarily wants to muddle through life relatively unscathed - are not the same thing.
    No, I have heard this same argument, in real life, on the internet and on bullshido for over a decade. Go ahead train what you like, but don't come here thinking you have added ANYTHING to this tired debate. You don't go to a BJJ exclusive gym to learn how to punch, you don't go to a Judo Dojo to learn how to kick, but people will go to a Kung Fu Kwoon to learn how to grapple.

    That is blatant Stupidity.

    Simply put, pressure, competition, live training and experience make you a better fighter; not untested theories.

    I counter your "average joe," "hidden knife" and "friends" dead horses with facts:
    MMA vs. Gun:



    MMA vs Knife:
    http://www.cagepotato.com/awesome-st...ag-last-month/
    Somehow in there he pulled a knife out, but I really didn’t see it because I really was paying attention up until then. I work with law enforcement and I work with our military. I have a contracting company that teaches hand-to-hand [combat]. I might even consider myself an expert at it. I didn’t see him pull it out,” he recalled. “He came at me and I knew he was coming, so I kind of pushed him away and side-stepped. He was throwing a really kind of wild punch, which I thought was a punch — I didn’t know he had a knife in his hand — and I kind of blocked it with my left and hit him with the right and knocked him out again. When he fell down, the knife fell out of his hand and I was like, ‘Oh, ****. I got lucky.
    http://www.cagepotato.com/in-your-fa...ampage-in-nyc/
    “Mr. Gelman lunged at him on the subway with the knife. Mr. Lozito said he knew he had to do something quickly (“or he was going to cut me up”) and so he rushed at Mr. Gelman with an improvised move that was somewhere between a single-leg takedown and a tackle.
    http://www.mmaweekly.com/former-ufc-...f-in-las-vegas
    According to McSweeney, the thief pulled a knife with a 3 or 4 inch blade and pointed it directly at the cashier who was trying to stop the robbery.

    Unfortunately for this thief, McSweeney, who worked in security in his home town of London, England for nearly a decade, was standing close by and decided to intervene.

    “I didn’t want anyone to get hurt, so I just went over and grabbed from the side by his shoulder and his lapel and took the knife from him and swept him to the floor and pinned him to the ground until security came and handcuffed him and took him off,” said McSweene
    Seriously, if "the street" "weapons," and "friends" are all you got then you have already ruined your own point.











    * All I have ever heard from chunners, truthfully most TMA knuckle heads including these two, is "I WILL NOT LET IT GO TO THE GROUND!"
  3. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 1:54pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    I studied Wing Chun for a few years under the UK Wing Chun Kung Fu association.

    My instructors never claimed the techniques they taught would work wonders in a MMA competition, render me invulnerable, or transform me into the kind of deadly street fighter that would make Kimbo Slice soil himself in the woods. Their purpose was to train effective self-defence, particularly for smaller and weaker individuals, in the event of being attacked by bigger, stronger assailant/s in real life 'street' or 'bar brawl' situations.

    My training did help me defend myself against a bigger guy (not a trained fighter or martial artist) who picked a fight with me after one too many cans of Special Brew. Maintaining centreline control and using the bong sau guard (with my elbow higher than conventionally taught) allowed me, very efficiently, to block his wild punches. He gave up and the situation diffused. I seriously doubt such linear, rigid techniques would foil an accomplished boxer or grappler, but that is not what they were designed to do. The Wing Chun I was taught was to defend against the typical street bully, not to dismember the Ultimate Fighter.
    I think I trained in an off shoot of the ukwckfa and I was told a similar thing, that WC is designed for the common street thug rather than a trained fighter or even an Everyman with some basic experience in another art.

    Well guess what. What if that common street thug trains? That's right, you're screwed.

    Again this begs the question why bother training an art that's clearly at the bottom of the food chain.
    "Won't fight me in the ring? Don't fight me on the street."
    Paraphrased from Bullshido.

    "You can't judge Martial Arts until you feel the joy of kicking someone in the face and not go to prison for it."
    Mrs Kovacs.
  4. Dreykil is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 2:45pm

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     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is Fake - Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail and for illustrating your points with video samples and articles.

    The Anti-Grappling seminar looks fanciful at best... perhaps some of the moves would work if the 'Wing Chun' practitioner were three times as strong as their attacker. The 'Wing Chun Masters' grappling video was just embarrassing.

    It's easy to see why people ridicule Wing Chun if they base their opinions on samples such as these. As stated though, I trained with the UK Wing Chun Kung Fu Association - to the best of my memory we never applied Wing Chun techniques in any of the contexts illustrated in your video samples.

    You say people will go to a Kung Fu Kwoon to learn how to grapple. Perhaps this is an American thing? In my country (UK), I don't think I've heard of a single case of someone studying Kung Fu to train grappling, though a few of my friends have trained both BJJ and Wing Chun.

    I agree that pressure, competition and live experience make better fighters. This was the gist of my criticism that Wing Chun lacked realistic sparring exercises. That said, I have listened to and read enough feedback from UKWCKF students about how their training has saved them in real life situations to realise there must be something in it.

    You MMA vs Gun example: Interesting but irrelevant, since I was discussing what I consider the benefits of my particular Wing Chun school, to me, in the UK. Gun attacks on civilians who aren't gang members are rare in the UK, since it is illegal for practically anyone over here to own a gun. Point taken though - if I move to the US then perhaps I should train some 'ultimate fighting', just in case someone tries to pop a cap in my ass.

    Regarding your knife disarmament examples, I'm sure plenty of martial arts have useful moves that can work in such situations. My point was that I don't want to go to the ground to test them out against a hidden knife if I can possibly avoid it. I don't deny that many a grappling practitioner might well floor me, despite my best efforts to avoid it. However, all the fights I've ever witnessed first-hand have been drunken brawls in or near to pubs/ clubs, or bullies picking on victims - I doubt most of these assailants could even spell the word 'grapple'. True, I don't live in a rough neighbourhood, nor do I go out looking for trouble. If I lived a more violent lifestyle, I'd definitely complement my Wing Chun with some kind of ground-fighting discipline, just in case I got mugged by Matt Hughes.

    I think you missed the point I apparently 'ruined'. I wasn't arguing Wing Chun is better than other martial arts on the street. I wasn't arguing Wing Chun is better at gun or knife disarmament than other martial arts. I agree that different Wing Chun schools use variations on the same techniques. And yes, the contextual applications of these techniques in the video samples you shared made me face-palm like Patrick Stewart with a migraine.

    My point was that Wing Chun (at least the variation I studied) has its strengths; it is simple and quick to learn, smaller and weaker people can use it effectively and it works well against your average thug who isn't an accomplished grappler.
  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 3:38pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    Wing Chun (at least the variation I studied) has its strengths; it is simple
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    and quick to learn
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    smaller and weaker people can use it effectively
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    it works well against your average thug who isn't an accomplished grappler.
    You can't prove any of these claims.
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 4:35pm

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     Style: 血鷲

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DimmedSum View Post
    Great things happen in parking lots...
    Nothing happens in a parking lot until someone says "Oh NOW we're in a parking lot".
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 4:35pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    It is Fake - Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail and for illustrating your points with video samples and articles.

    The Anti-Grappling seminar looks fanciful at best... perhaps some of the moves would work if the 'Wing Chun' practitioner were three times as strong as their attacker. The 'Wing Chun Masters' grappling video was just embarrassing.

    It's easy to see why people ridicule Wing Chun if they base their opinions on samples such as these. As stated though, I trained with the UK Wing Chun Kung Fu Association - to the best of my memory we never applied Wing Chun techniques in any of the contexts illustrated in your video samples.

    You say people will go to a Kung Fu Kwoon to learn how to grapple. Perhaps this is an American thing? In my country (UK), I don't think I've heard of a single case of someone studying Kung Fu to train grappling, though a few of my friends have trained both BJJ and Wing Chun.

    I agree that pressure, competition and live experience make better fighters. This was the gist of my criticism that Wing Chun lacked realistic sparring exercises. That said, I have listened to and read enough feedback from UKWCKF students about how their training has saved them in real life situations to realise there must be something in it.

    You MMA vs Gun example: Interesting but irrelevant, since I was discussing what I consider the benefits of my particular Wing Chun school, to me, in the UK. Gun attacks on civilians who aren't gang members are rare in the UK, since it is illegal for practically anyone over here to own a gun. Point taken though - if I move to the US then perhaps I should train some 'ultimate fighting', just in case someone tries to pop a cap in my ass.

    Regarding your knife disarmament examples, I'm sure plenty of martial arts have useful moves that can work in such situations. My point was that I don't want to go to the ground to test them out against a hidden knife if I can possibly avoid it. I don't deny that many a grappling practitioner might well floor me, despite my best efforts to avoid it. However, all the fights I've ever witnessed first-hand have been drunken brawls in or near to pubs/ clubs, or bullies picking on victims - I doubt most of these assailants could even spell the word 'grapple'. True, I don't live in a rough neighbourhood, nor do I go out looking for trouble. If I lived a more violent lifestyle, I'd definitely complement my Wing Chun with some kind of ground-fighting discipline, just in case I got mugged by Matt Hughes.

    I think you missed the point I apparently 'ruined'. I wasn't arguing Wing Chun is better than other martial arts on the street. I wasn't arguing Wing Chun is better at gun or knife disarmament than other martial arts. I agree that different Wing Chun schools use variations on the same techniques. And yes, the contextual applications of these techniques in the video samples you shared made me face-palm like Patrick Stewart with a migraine.

    My point was that Wing Chun (at least the variation I studied) has its strengths; it is simple and quick to learn, smaller and weaker people can use it effectively and it works well against your average thug who isn't an accomplished grappler.
    This is why nutriders, like you, get reamed on bullshido. Every one, and I do mean
    , of your current arguments was addressed by my initial response.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 5/02/2013 4:52pm at .
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 4:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreykil View Post
    My point was that Wing Chun (at least the variation I studied) has its strengths; it is simple and quick to learn, smaller and weaker people can use it effectively and it works well against your average thug who isn't an accomplished grappler.
    You are vastly overestimating the need for a grappler to be "accomplished" or even for your opponent to specifically be a grappler. Wrestling seems to be the natural state of most drunken fools out there. It harkens back to ones rough housing youth.

    Now everything you just described can be said for: Sambo, BJJ and Judo.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 4:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's making the tired "lowest common denominator" argument.

    Oh and one more thing.
    Irrelevant? LOL. Only a nutrider would separate a relevant point, from the whole, because "I don't need to worry about guns."
  10. BJMills is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2013 6:02pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Obvious problems with wing Chun...

    Stances: having most of your weight on the back leg limits mobility and ability to generate power with either the hands or feet, which leads to...

    Chain punching. A series of relatively ineffective punches does not provide some magic benefit over say boxing or even any competitive karate punch.

    Both the stance and the straight line punches pretty much beg for a single or double leg takedown. And make either difficult to defend. As everyone has already said, hard to stay off the ground if you can't stop anyone from putting you there.

    Trapping. The 'meat' of the system is useless against people who do not engage in trapping with you, which is everyone else who doesn't do wing Chun. Trapping also functions in the clinch range which Judo, bjj, boxing, wrestling, sambo, Muay Thai and many other comparative arts perform much more effective in.

    Ultimately wing Chun is less effective than just planting your feet, ducking your head, and swinging haymakers. And that's the problem.

    Why train to be worse off than you were before?
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