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  1. alexmac is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2013 1:41am

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    Glen Lachlann Estate College of Arms (in Australia)

    Hi,

    I saw this group at the National Celtic Festival and it sounds interesting but the travel from Geelong to South Melbourne could be a bit much and they seem expensive (800 per year for a class a week).

    Does anyone know if they are a good WMA group?

    They apparently do bartistu, but I only saw them swinging plastic swords on the day, they were on The Age website on the weekend of the festival talking about.
    (sorry too new to post links)

    But there is no mention of bartistu or any style on their website like other groups seem to have.

    They have a youtube channel, but the link seems to be broken.

    I was hoping for another opinon on whether it is worth travelling 100km every week for a class or if you know of a group that is closer to Geelong that would be even better.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/18/2013 1:31pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've only heard of them via the Bartitsu article/video that appeared in the news. As far as that goes, one of the instructors is described as teaching something that is "Bartitsu inspired", which (somewhat educated guess) may mean that they do walking cane sparring, etc. without the other elements of boxing and jujitsu.
  3. Vorschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2013 3:43pm


     Style: kampfringen/savate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Their web site seems to suggest a "pan european" approach to constructing a medieval based art.

    I cannot see anything on their website about later period arts (beyond a mention of rapier which is still too early for bartitsu).
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/18/2013 5:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Bartitsu reference is buried in one of the instructor bios. IMO Bartitsu was most likely the subject of the recent Aussie news item about this club ( http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/20...rne-australia/ ) in the wake of the New York Times Bartitsu feature that had appeared the week before. So, basically; see bandwagon, jump.
  5. alexmac is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 7:01am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorschlag View Post
    Their web site seems to suggest a "pan european" approach to constructing a medieval based art.

    I cannot see anything on their website about later period arts (beyond a mention of rapier which is still too early for bartitsu).
    If they are making their own art their own words are a concern.

    From their website
    This was accomplished through an intensive 14 month study of well over 200 texts, accounts, manuals and manuscripts of Traditional European Martial Arts ranging from Greenland through the British Isles to Russia.

    So that is a text every two days, that does not sound like an intensive look at any of them unless they focussed on only few.

    I found their youtube videos, youtube.com / user / GlenLachlann;

    can anyone confirm whether what they do is historical or is it just modern invention?
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 3:58pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexmac View Post
    If they are making their own art their own words are a concern.

    From their website
    This was accomplished through an intensive 14 month study of well over 200 texts, accounts, manuals and manuscripts of Traditional European Martial Arts ranging from Greenland through the British Isles to Russia.

    So that is a text every two days, that does not sound like an intensive look at any of them unless they focussed on only few.

    I found their youtube videos, youtube.com / user / GlenLachlann;

    can anyone confirm whether what they do is historical or is it just modern invention?
    Although it's probably more common for groups to focus on particular historical sources, the goal of developing a sort of eclectic art inspired by a range of sources doesn't necessarily invalidate what they're doing, as long as they're up-front about their aims and methods. They may well by very efficient within their own parameters.

    That said, I had a quick look at the cane sparring videos (which are not presented as Bartitsu per se), and while there's some evident skill, it doesn't seem as if they are aiming at a strict reconstruction of the historical art.
  7. snimmo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 7:18pm

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    Hi Alex,

    which day were you are NFC? I was running the display tournament on Saturday and I was filming the fights on Sunday for them. You should of come up and had a chat.

    I am not a member of GLECA, but I have worked with them extensively since they started via Melbourne Swordplay Guild.

    They are what might be described as HEMA with a little h;
    Stu has been developing a syllabus that is based on simple biomechanical motions that are found in some historical texts and then attempted to apply this to as many weapons as possible.

    eg. their "Active Stance" in longsword is essentially vom Tag from German sources, and they have applied this to their unarmed, cane, etc. Their punches from this stance replicate the mechanics of their strike with a longsword.

    Their movement is more inspired on German sources, GLECA actually started with Marcus looking of someone to teach swordplay during the day and Stu McDonald was available (and previously ran a german group with another MSG member).

    Culturally they are more about fitness with swords, and their students are a close knit bunch and are quite active in our monthly tournaments.

    I would recommend that you at least visit them (or if Mondays are hard, come to a tournament on the 3rd Sunday of each month) and talk to Marcus and see what they do.

    I do know that one of their members (Max) been working with cane for over a year and that this year they started applying it to the GLECA movements. That might explain why it looks off to any "purists".

    I did see your other thread and I do have a solution in your home town also, so PM me for more info.

    I have also passed this over to Marcus in case there was anything else he might want to add.

    I hope that helps.

    regards,
    Scott Nimmo
    Melbourne Swordplay Guild
  8. MaximS is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 8:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by snimmo View Post
    I do know that one of their members (Max) been working with cane for over a year and that this year they started applying it to the GLECA movements. That might explain why it looks off to any "purists".
    That'd be me, hi.

    What we teach is an entirely contemporary martial arts system. While we have looked at historical sources, as the website describes, the end result is not a direct representation of any specific historical art or context. The cane syllabus started off with one of our instructors taking an interest in Bartitsu, but it has now been blended with FMA, la canne, with Cunningham's system for cane self defense, with Fairbairn's short stick fighting and with our existing longsword and single sword syllabus. Rachel was interested in Bartitsu, so she wrote about Bartitsu.

    DdlR is also correct in understanding that the cane fighting was the only element lifted from Bartitsu, the boxing and ju-jitsu have been disregarded at this stage.

    So if what you're after is historical in any way, we're probably not for you. Not that history is a dirty word around here, but there's no focus on 'How was this done?', it's all 'How can I do it now?'. Specific traditional fighting systems are a good starting point, but we aim to teach with the benefit of hindsight, modern equipment, comparison between forms and modern sports science.
  9. wikidbounce is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2013 10:15pm


     Style: Sticks & Jits & Fritz

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximS View Post
    The cane syllabus started off with one of our instructors taking an interest in Bartitsu, but it has now been blended with FMA, la canne, with Cunningham's system for cane self defense, with Fairbairn's short stick fighting and with our existing longsword and single sword syllabus.
    Sounds exactly what I'd be interested in, too bad I'm in the wrong state.

    There's a lot of sources there to draw from. What would you say is the main base style of cane/stick that you get the majority of techniques and concepts from (before adding from other styles). Also what techniques/concepts have you reviewed and have decided you wont be incorporating into the blend.
  10. MaximS is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2013 4:02am

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    Quote Originally Posted by wikidbounce View Post
    Sounds exactly what I'd be interested in, too bad I'm in the wrong state.

    There's a lot of sources there to draw from. What would you say is the main base style of cane/stick that you get the majority of techniques and concepts from (before adding from other styles). Also what techniques/concepts have you reviewed and have decided you wont be incorporating into the blend.
    As a base we looked at the common features of all the styles, what does everyone do with that sort of weapon. Same thing was the basis for the longsword and single sword syllabus that were developed a few years ago. From that common ground we then add in elements that are common to one or two styles, but not all of them, through a trial and error process to decide on the most efficient and consistent movements.

    As far as excluded technique, this is just off the top of my head
    - Bartitsu: the boxing and ju-jitsu techniques, as I said before. we're avoiding anything that involves control of the knee or ankle joints for the moment just as a safety issue, pending getting the students more trained at falling and acquiring better flooring materials.
    - FMA: things that would be inhibited by a longer weapon, most Filipino technique that has been borrowed is working with the butt of the stick into joints and such, and using off hand movement to complement the weapon.
    - la canne: quick, sweeping movements, that are harder to do with a heavier weapon (we use rattan aikido canes or hardwood straight sticks, both heavier than la canne weapons)
    - Cunningham: two handed techniques, anything two handed reverts back to longsword technique, since everything that's taught is part of a single system
    - Fairbairn: doesn't have much on stick, so it's mostly in there, except for the parts about concealing a weapon.

    For the record, where are you located, I know a few people interstate who do similar things, although their program development is different.
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